NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

Ok, 650/6=108.3, so about equal to mine depending on rock displacement. Your 40ml of vodka divided by 6 is 6.66 and vinegar at 80ml divided by 6 is 13.33. Your dosing is about 120 ml if I divide that by 6 it is a 20 ml dose.
I guess what I'm figuring is a 2:1 ratio, as your doing, on my mix instead of 3:2 as I'm doing now, and 20ml daily. I should start with a lower dose say... 5ml and build up to the 20 ml over 3-4 weeks?
I think that's what your suggesting?
 
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Different math but I think it get's to almost same place.

I calculate based on total carbon content(C) in vinegar equivalents: 1 ml of vodka is 8 ;one mil of vinegar is 1. Thus the 2:1 ratio you note 2:1 for 20 ml =13.33 C from the vinegar and (6.66 times 8 )53.28C from the vodka for a total of 66.6 vinegar equivalents. For 100 gallons that's 0.67 per gallon.

My miantenance dose ranges from .59 t0 .62 per gallon .

5ml at the 2:1 you plan to use would equal about .17 per gallon .That might be fine enough to start. I recommended a bit less: .1 ,around 3ml of your 2:1 mix working up to .5 or 15 ml.
 
Hi everyone!

Just a quick question - yesterday I mixed up some DIY NoPox using the formula mentioned in post #48, which was the following:

Vokda: 375ml (40% abv, 80 proof)
RODI: 125ml
Vinegar: 500ml (5% acetic acid)

I could only find white vinegar with 4.2% acidity - is this going to cause a problem?

But the mixture doesn't seem to smell as 'strong' as the original NoPox product - there isn't as much 'bite' (which I assume comes from the vinegar in Nopox? Should I be concerned, or maybe decrease the amount of RO water I put into the next recipe to ensure it isn't watered down as much?


Thank you
Matt
 
You might want to use a bit more vinegar, about 20% more, and back off on the water to 25 ml, but either way is close enough. The slightly lower concentration of vinegar likely explains the difference in the odor.
 
Agree with Bertoni.

You can also try Biom's calculator (see post #233). You can input the strength of the vinegar in the excel sheet. I switched from nopox to Tom (tmz's) carbon "recipe" (no RODI water) and have been very pleased with the results.

A little RODI won't hurt, but diluting too much will allow bacteria to populate in the mixture before it gets dosed to the tank. This happened to me so I now dose the undiluted mix and its worked very reliably.

-droog
 
Hi everyone!

Just a quick question - yesterday I mixed up some DIY NoPox using the formula mentioned in post #48, which was the following:

Vokda: 375ml (40% abv, 80 proof)
RODI: 125ml
Vinegar: 500ml (5% acetic acid)

I could only find white vinegar with 4.2% acidity - is this going to cause a problem?

But the mixture doesn't seem to smell as 'strong' as the original NoPox product - there isn't as much 'bite' (which I assume comes from the vinegar in Nopox? Should I be concerned, or maybe decrease the amount of RO water I put into the next recipe to ensure it isn't watered down as much?


Thank you
Matt

The different smell of DIY Nopox and original one comes from isopropanol in original NOPOX. Red Sea use denatured ethanol because of cost and other legal reasons. The ethanol is denatured with methanol and isopropanol. Methanol is added because it is poisonous to humans, but it has almost no smell, that's why isopropanol is added because of its very strong distinctive smell (acetone like) to prevent from drinking by humans.
 
Different math but I think it get's to almost same place.

I calculate based on total carbon content(C) in vinegar equivalents: 1 ml of vodka is 8 ;one mil of vinegar is 1. Thus the 2:1 ratio you note 2:1 for 20 ml =13.33 C from the vinegar and (6.66 times 8 )53.28C from the vodka for a total of 66.6 vinegar equivalents. For 100 gallons that's 0.67 per gallon.

My miantenance dose ranges from .59 t0 .62 per gallon .

5ml at the 2:1 you plan to use would equal about .17 per gallon .That might be fine enough to start. I recommended a bit less: .1 ,around 3ml of your 2:1 mix working up to .5 or 15 ml.

Ethanol and acetate аrе not comparable even if their carbon content is equalized. They are metabolized in cells in slightly different ways, and ethanol pass thru additional steps that gives more energy.
In biological way 1 gram of ethanol carbon gives more energy than 1 gram of acetate carbon. In a experiment described in another forum i"ve switched from nopox to pure acetic acid (vinegar) without transitional period and equalized the dose chemically. The results were almost catastrophic - in less than a week phosphates rose to .61ppm and I switched back to diy nopox. Now im sure that ethanol and acetate are metabolized of different strains of bacteria in our tanks (at least in my tank), and transition from one source to another should be done slowly,to allow bacteria population to adapt.
 
Ethanol and acetate аrе not comparable even if their carbon content is equalized. They are metabolized in cells in slightly different ways, and ethanol pass thru additional steps that gives more energy.
In biological way 1 gram of ethanol carbon gives more energy than 1 gram of acetate carbon. In a experiment described in another forum i"ve switched from nopox to pure acetic acid (vinegar) without transitional period and equalized the dose chemically. The results were almost catastrophic - in less than a week phosphates rose to .61ppm and I switched back to diy nopox. Now im sure that ethanol and acetate are metabolized of different strains of bacteria in our tanks (at least in my tank), and transition from one source to another should be done slowly,to allow bacteria population to adapt.

Hi,

Thanks for that report. I agree ethanol gives more ,"biological energy" , more enzyme activity and bacterial activity , at least via ADH activity and ethanol's oxidation to acetic acid . I'm still interested in leaning more about those pathways if you have a good reference. Particularly, I wonder if more PO4 is taken up some how in the biomass of the bactreria involved ADH and oxidizing activities with ethanol than is the case with acetic acid .
Vodka can also be bolus dosed without precipitous downward pH spikes occasioned by bulk dosing of higher volumes of vinegar( acetic acid) .

When I started my ongoing run of organic carbon dosing over 6 years ago I dosed just ethanol( vodka) for the first month or so . After seeing some of cyano bacteria and reading early reports that suggested vinegar produced less cyano I decided to switch over to slow dosed vinegar, incrementally. After switching 25% of the ethanol dose to acetic acid , the cyano seemed to be waning( coincidence unique to the variables in my system ? perhaps) ; after reaching a 50% shift the cyano came back ;so, I backed off on the vinegar and increased the vodka to the current proportions noted in post 48. The cyano abated and hasn't come back.

Over the ensuing years folks have reported cyano bursts with vinegar dosing as well as vodka dosing which leads me to suspect it's a start up for carbon dosing in general ( vodka or vinegar) occasioned by competition with some of cyano's competitors for nutrients waning early giving cyano a temporary edge until the increased heterotrophic bacteria get going fully.
 
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Hi everyone!

Just a quick question - yesterday I mixed up some DIY NoPox using the formula mentioned in post #48, which was the following:

Vokda: 375ml (40% abv, 80 proof)
RODI: 125ml
Vinegar: 500ml (5% acetic acid)

I could only find white vinegar with 4.2% acidity - is this going to cause a problem?

But the mixture doesn't seem to smell as 'strong' as the original NoPox product - there isn't as much 'bite' (which I assume comes from the vinegar in Nopox? Should I be concerned, or maybe decrease the amount of RO water I put into the next recipe to ensure it isn't watered down as much?


Thank you
Matt

I don't think a 19% variance( 5% vs 4.2%) in the strength of the vinegar used is a problem in terms of the proportions of acetic acid , ethanol and water ; . If you wish you could do some math to figure out a out a way to match the ethanol , acetic acid and water content to a precise proportions and organic carbon strength of choice. FWIW, I don't mix mine and dose the vodka and vinegar separately ;simpler for my routine.
 
Over the ensuing years folks have reported cyano bursts with vinegar dosing as well as vodka dosing which leads me to suspect it's a start up for carbon dosing in general ( vodka or vinegar) occasioned by competition with some of cyano's competitors for nutrients waning early giving cyano a temporary edge until the increased heterotrophic bacteria get going fully.
Totally agree.

"Particularly, I wonder if more PO4 is taken up some how in the biomass of the bactreria involved ADH and oxidizing activities with ethanol than is the case with acetic acid . "

It is possible yes, but the difference is probably very small. I believe that some PAO's (phosphate accumulating organisms) prefer ethanol over acetate as a energy source to accumulate phosphate in their cells.

From the experiment I've mentioned above I find that it is not possible phosphates to risen from almost zero to .61ppm just in a few days only because of feeding. My theory is that adding acetate caused bloom of heterotrophic bacteria and they started fast mineralization of accumulated detritus (my tank is bare bottom and reduction of detritus is quite easy to be seen) thus leading to fast increasing of phosphates and nitrates in water. That is why I think ethanol and acetate work well together - because acetate helps mineralization of organics to nitrate and phosphate, and ethanol helps phosphate accumulation in some PAO's which are easily skimmed latter on.
 
Thanks; an interesting way to look at it. IME, I see a bump in PO4 whenever , I rarely miss a vodka dose.
 
Hi guys,

I'm about to mix up droogs post#84 ratio of 375ml 80 proof vodka, 125 rodi, 500ml vinegar.

I have been dosing 5 ml of straight 80 proof vodka a day and read 0 phosphate pretty consistent. 0 or very low nitrate. PO4 on Hanna colorimeter NO3 on salifert.

I've got cyano and a strange white hair algae, tried cutting back vodka even stopped briefly, but gets worse.

How much of the diy nopox do you recommend I replace my 5ml daily of vodka with?

Thanks!
 
I would dose about 8-10 ml. The DIY recipe is about 44% the concentration of vodka, if my math is correct:

(375 + (.125 x 500)) / 1000 = .4375
 
Thanks Bertoni! I was guessing maybe 10, but wasn't sure. Guess I'll start on the lower end and continue to monitor PO4 NO3

Thanks again.
 
I believe you need to use special (silicone?) tubing rather than standard airline tubing that reacts with vinegar. I'm using standard tubing but dilute the mixture 9:1 with RO/DI

-droog

wondering if this is true ... as i use airline !! :headwally:
 
wondering if this is true ... as i use airline !! :headwally:

It was a RedSea rep that gave me that advice. I think it was something to do with leaching plasticisers from the tubing and/or making the tubing turn brittle over time. Probably doesn't matter so much.

-droog
 
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