NO3:PO4-x conversion to vinegar

[jason2459]

It was a RedSea rep that gave me that advice. I think it was something to do with leaching plasticisers from the tubing and/or making the tubing turn brittle over time. Probably doesn't matter so much.

-droog

For some reason and I'm not familiar with the entire story here but there's been people that have had issue with bubbles forming in the airlines with nopox. Also for those using clear containers have had issue with nopox turning cloudy.

I'm not sure what the other ingredients are but there does seem to be some contaminants that causes reaction with light.

So, they've suggested not using either. I've not had issues with either using straight vinegar not diluted more then it's normal 5%.

 

[Laith]

Great thread! Much good information...

I have been dosing vinegar (4.5%) for quite some time (doser during lights on) and have recently realised that my NO3 and PO4 levels have crept up on me (30 and 0.4 respectively).

I have a total volume of about 270 liters and usually calculate based on 200l of water volume. Yesterday I increased my vinegar dosing from 30ml a day to 34ml a day with the idea of continuing to increase by 4ml a week until NO3 and PO4 started reducing.

After reading this thread I am intrigued by the speculation that perhaps a mix of ethanol and acetic acid provides for a "better" mix of bacteria that are more efficient in PO4 removal than vinegar alone.

So I'm thinking of replacing my current 34ml vinegar dose with the tmz mix as calculated in the excel calculater posted a while back. Can someone double check my reasoning at arriving at an equivalent of 11.3ml of the tmz mix:

11.3ml of tmz contains 3.24ml of vodka and 8ml of vinegar. 3.24ml of vodka is the equivalent of just under 26ml of vinegar. Total vinegar equivalent is 34ml...

Given the difference in "efficiency" of carbon uptake between vinegar and ethanol (extra biochemical step), should I dose more of the new mix?

Or maybe I'm just overworking the issue and should just stick to vinegar? :spin1:

 

[bertoni]

I would dose an equivalent amount of carbon. The effect of the extra step isn't as important as the total amount of carbon, in my opinion.

 

[taricha]

Sounds like you did the math right. Aim for same carbon amount as stated.
In my tank, even though my system was was adapted to a carbon source, when I switched to another, or to a mix - I got a temporary bacterial bloom - even though the carbon level was the same.
Don't know if that's common or not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

[Laith]

Ok, I'll stick to the carbon equivalent then. Thanks for the confirmation.

In my tank, even though my system was was adapted to a carbon source, when I switched to another, or to a mix - I got a temporary bacterial bloom - even though the carbon level was the same.
Don't know if that's common or not.

This is interesting and could possibly indicate that different carbon sources feed different strains of bacteria. By changing the carbon source or mix of carbon source could there be a bacterial bloom because a strain of bacteria that was not previously "fed" now has a ready source of food and the population grows rapidly?

Difficult to see another reason given the same carbon equivalent dosing before and after.

Off to find some 40% vodka...

 

[tmz]

For me the ethanol and acetic acid mix has worked well for many years long before NOPOX came out. The dose I use now is 36ml 80 proof vodka plus 80 ml 5% acetic acid vinegar daily to the 650 gallon system. That holds PO4 in the 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm range per hanah 713 and NO3 around 0.2 in the heavily fed system. I haven't used gfo for about 3 years at this level.

 

[reelfreak]

Reporting back with very positive results after switch from Vodka only. I made my batch with 125ml RODI/375ml Vodka/500ml Vinegar. I'm dosing 10 ml total split into two doses during lights on. System is around 160gals total.

With vodka I began to have unidentifiable stringy white algae, dropped my vodka dose in half and didn't help....turned it off and hair algae came out.

Began DIY NOPOX, 5/27/16 and still read 0 phos 0 nitrates like the vodka but my white stringy stuff is gone. I WILL ADD that I upgraded my skimmer at the same time and undoubtedly that's part of the improvement.

Thanks to those in this thread :beer:

 

[tmz]

You are welcome and

Thanks for the report

 

[tmz]

This is interesting and could possibly indicate that different carbon sources feed different strains of bacteria

They do. Complex carbohydrates like sugar, potatoes, rice, biopelets etc. have long complex degradation pathways to acetate often involving glucose which is harmful to corals in excess as well as many reactions and by products( search up carbohydrate pathways; it's a seemingly never ending tree) vs simpler organics like acetic acid which goes to acetate( a substance useful to living things including heterotrophic bacterial metabolism) in water and ethanol which takes one additional step via ethanol oxidizing bacteria which turn ethanol into acetic acid, for example.

 

[jason2459]

You can even use Wikipedia to traverse the chain of metabolites that many carbon sources break down too. I find it a fun and fascinating time killer.


My results after switching to TMZ's ratio for vodka and vinegar (not sure if it matches the spreadsheet as I based it off his posts) are still going strong in regard to phosphates. They are still being pushed below .03 consistently.

Not that they were sky high before. With straight vinegar po4 was kept below .09.

 

[Newms118]

Reporting back with very positive results after switch from Vodka only. I made my batch with 125ml RODI/375ml Vodka/500ml Vinegar. I'm dosing 10 ml total split into two doses during lights on. System is around 160gals total.

With vodka I began to have unidentifiable stringy white algae, dropped my vodka dose in half and didn't help....turned it off and hair algae came out.

Began DIY NOPOX, 5/27/16 and still read 0 phos 0 nitrates like the vodka but my white stringy stuff is gone. I WILL ADD that I upgraded my skimmer at the same time and undoubtedly that's part of the improvement.

Thanks to those in this thread :beer:

I'm completely new to the whole dosing vodka/NOPOX business, so I was wondering what do people use for testing for NO3 and PO4. I have a HANNA meter for the PO4, so I figured thatll due unless theres something better. For NO3, I have the API Nitrate test, but its either 0 or 5 ppm which doesnt help at all of course. How crucial is it to know precisely the NO3 and PO4? Is it just enough to dose NOPOX from Red Sea until the coral colors begin to come in, or do you have to seriously fine tune this. My main issue is that my tank appears to be where corals come to lose all their colors, unless they are green. I have majority leathers and LPS, with some encrusting montipora, Leptastrea and Cyphastrea. They were quite beautiful when I first got them, and now the majority are seriously dull and pale. I've tried growing chaeto but it just dies in my refugium, most of the algae in my DT appears to out compete it. so NOPOX was the next idea.

I should add that if I test my NO3 and PO4 now, both are either 0 or close to it, but I think thats just an artifact of the algae in the DT absorbing it up, otherwise I dont know why the corals would lose so much color.

 

[droog]

Please see this thread for recommendations on test kit. Hanna ULR (Phosphorous) test kit is what you need for Po4. Personally I like salifert for No3.

Whether you need to know the numbers precisely or not is a personal choice. With experience I think you can judge the levels by observing the tank. How often do you have to clean the glass, etc.

I find that carbon dosing controls N03 perfectly, but doesn't export quite enough P04 to prevent algae so I run a little (about 20% of recommended dose of GFO changed monthly). Others manage with carbon dosing only.

If you have pest algae in the DT, they do absorb the nutrients quickly so your numbers are really only useful as a "best case estimate" which is not very useful.

I think carbon dosing is great for long-term nutrient level control. The pest algae in your DT is a different story. GFO in a reactor and measure Po4 daily to see where you are and 3 days light-out once a month... knock down the pest algae fist, then carbon dosing may keep things in check.

Your other chemistry needs to be good and stable also.

-droog

 

[Newms118]

Please see this thread for recommendations on test kit. Hanna ULR (Phosphorous) test kit is what you need for Po4. Personally I like salifert for No3.

Whether you need to know the numbers precisely or not is a personal choice. With experience I think you can judge the levels by observing the tank. How often do you have to clean the glass, etc.

I find that carbon dosing controls N03 perfectly, but doesn't export quite enough P04 to prevent algae so I run a little (about 20% of recommended dose of GFO changed monthly). Others manage with carbon dosing only.

If you have pest algae in the DT, they do absorb the nutrients quickly so your numbers are really only useful as a "best case estimate" which is not very useful.

I think carbon dosing is great for long-term nutrient level control. The pest algae in your DT is a different story. GFO in a reactor and measure Po4 daily to see where you are and 3 days light-out once a month... knock down the pest algae fist, then carbon dosing may keep things in check.

Your other chemistry needs to be good and stable also.

-droog

I tend to have to clean my glass at least once a day. I have GSP on my back wall that when all closed up, are covered in algae. And my overflow always has algae that grows and has to be removed (makes sense bc its right next to the lights). I run two bags of chemipure blue and that puts a little dent in the algae but not for long. I just hate the fact that the chaeto wont grow despite me clearly having enough nitrate and PO4.

For the 3 days without lights, is that the maximum? Id worry about the corals being really bad after that.

 

[droog]

Your po4 is out of control if you have to clean glass once a day or more.

Chemipure is an expensive resin and GFO mixture. I would ditch that and run GFO in a reactor (preferable) or media bag.

General recommendation seems to be 3 days lights out is a max, and then half strength for a day. I'm no expert at lighting, posting in new-to-the-hobby might get you more help.

Good luck!

-droog

 

[reelfreak]

I'm using hanna phosphate meter and salifert NO3 myself. I also feel I can judge accuracy of those levels by tanks condition and coloration.

Depending on your WC schedule and amount of skimming you're doing, you might consider some amino acids and trace elements addition to enhance coloration. My colors are much better after implementation of them. Very pastel almost faded in some SPS prior to starting. My WC schedule goes at least 4 weeks apart usually, unlike some who do them weekly and might not benefit from the trace elements like my system has.

 

[Newms118]

Your po4 is out of control if you have to clean glass once a day or more.

Chemipure is an expensive resin and GFO mixture. I would ditch that and run GFO in a reactor (preferable) or media bag.

General recommendation seems to be 3 days lights out is a max, and then half strength for a day. I'm no expert at lighting, posting in new-to-the-hobby might get you more help.

Good luck!

-droog

Yeah I'd love to run a reactor but I dont have the space where my tank is located. I dont feed all that much, so I think my rock is STILL releasing PO4, I've had this tank running for more than a year and yet still have this issue.

 

[Newms118]

I'm using hanna phosphate meter and salifert NO3 myself. I also feel I can judge accuracy of those levels by tanks condition and coloration.

Depending on your WC schedule and amount of skimming you're doing, you might consider some amino acids and trace elements addition to enhance coloration. My colors are much better after implementation of them. Very pastel almost faded in some SPS prior to starting. My WC schedule goes at least 4 weeks apart usually, unlike some who do them weekly and might not benefit from the trace elements like my system has.

I skim a good amount, and I do add Korallen-Zucht sponge power, LPS amino acid, and pohl's extra special. No real change. I thought it was my LEDs but either increasing or decreasing their intensity doesnt change anything. I've tried giving coral food, no change. So I think it must be NO3 and PO4. Its funny, all my family and friends say the tank looks beautiful and I just laugh bc I know it looks like crap given what it should look like.

 

[Newms118]

Ok so I finally tested my nitrate and phosphate again. The nitrate was tested with the red sea nitrate pro test kit. Got a value of 0.00 ppm (the water had silverish precipitate in it). I used a Hanna phosphate checker and also got a value of 0.00. So what should I do? I still have algae that has no issue of growing. I just got rid of my chaeto since it just wont grow, its being out competed by the algae in the DT.

Should I just stop with the NO3PO4X? Or should I add a small amount until all the algae is gone?

 

[bertoni]

Carbon dosing might be able to reduce algal growth in some cases, so I'd keep up with it or consider increasing it, but you will need to watch how well the corals are doing. They might start having problems at some point.

 

[droog]

+1 keep up the dosing. Likely there are still excess nutrients in your system fuelling algae growth in your DT. After another month or two you might see the algae in the DT begin to slow or (if you are lucky) begin to die off. Anything you can get out manually will help.

If nutrients were elevated for any length of time the rockwork will leech PO4 back into the water. That will stop eventually, but its a time frame of weeks or months rather than days. In the meantime, automate the carbon dose and try to enjoy your tank!

-droog