NOAA might end the coral trade - please comment!!!

[CuzzA]

Great post Howard



unfortunately...once something gets this far in the system...as I have seen many regs instituted in my 40 years in the business...what they propose...happens....is sad as there is no science behind it...the only recourse is public retort...quick and concise...sometimes that works...but fighting big brother is tough...



Richard TBS

www.tbsaltwater.com

Richard, I agree but just maybe we can win this one if everyone comments. They did come up with this whole mess from "comments". SMH.

And I know the ordeal you went through down here in Florida. What a nightmare. I'll be coming by soon to get more rock.

 

[OrQidz]

great posts and a lot of good points.

Thank you rgulrich for helping to decipher some of the legalese!

Does anyone familiar with the Asian Arowana situation find this to be analogous (ie that they are basically illegal to have in the US due the the endangered listing)? Is this what would happen to say...frogspawn coral? I'm just trying to picture what a no take/listing or whatever they call it, would look like in real life. Could frag swaps violate the Lacey Act?

Maoiwowie, I think we think a lot alike! I too am trying to keep an open mind with all this.

For me what it comes down to is: if ending the hobby completely would save the reefs, I would agree it should end. But that's not the situation. So, although I am usually one to err on the side of conservation and put the environment ahead of those who want to take things from it - I'm in what feels to me to be an odd position of opposing this. If I thought it would help save reefs at all, I would probably support it.

Cuzza you made some really good points about what good the hobby does. It makes me think of the precarious position of many Central American livebearer fish who are highly endangered to extinct in the wild. Yet, because aquarists have populations of them, and breed and trade them, the species still exist. Making these fish illegal would be the nail in the coffin for some of them.

 

[OrQidz]

Okay, comment submitted! It says 108 comments now, so they must have updated it from 12 finally.

 

[JPMagyar]

Human's are funny. There are thousands of seemingly interested hobbyists on this website, but yet this topic draws little to no attention. Whether or not you think the threat to the hobby overall is serious I would think folks would be discussing this issue a little more thoroughly than they are.

Anyways, comment submitted for what it's worth.

If they do make owning these corals illegal. I guess I'll have to move to Canada with my collection

 

[JPMagyar]

Interesting comment from another forum. Remember these are NOT my words; I'm simply sharing another person's thoughts on the topic . . .

Dying? I don't know about that. Probably in for some major headaches but no matter what they do they'll never stop the hobby completely. Unless they want to spend billions tracking us all down it will continue. Perhaps at a reduced level and pushed to secretive meetings to swap frags but it will go on. It'll turn us all into "criminals" but that's never stopped similar underground trades before. Money talks and there's a billion dollar industry who will fight to the last dollar protecting their investment.

And who is going to agree to spend the money that state and federal governments don't have to enforce any of this anyway? Moonshine hasn't been stopped. Digital pirating hasn't stopped. Illegal drugs haven't stopped. Prohibition didn't even come close to working.

Remember the original banana republic and the military coup that followed - orchestrated by our own government? All because of the monopoly the fruit companies had over banana importation. They stood to lose tons of money as did the US. All it took was some lobbying and our own gov overthrows a democratically elected government. Lots of money equals lots of pressure and lots of power.

Anywho - that was just one small industry compared to the pet trade today. Not to say this will be easy but I'm not liking the whole "sky is falling" mindset. It feels like the same tactic NOAA used with the permits. Get em now before it's too late. After all, there's a lot of rich people behind the pet trade and all threats to their wealth, no matter how small are taken seriously. We should be concerned yes but we shouldn't run around like chickens with our heads cut off.

You can count me as one of the people swapping frags in back rooms no matter what they do.

The biggest threat to a free society is not the removal of freedom but the acceptance by the people of said removal. Support them, offer your comments, write to those in charge but never just give up and give in. It's not immoral or illegal to fight an immoral or illegal law no matter what some piece of paper says.

 

[JPMagyar]

For those looking for a quick and easy way to voice their opinion may I suggest simply stating your support for the PIJAC Aquatic Committee's position . . .

Comment: Regulations.gov

PIJAC Aquatic Committee Response



Something as simple as:

Dear NMFS,

I fully support the comments and proposals made by the PIJAC Aquatic Committee in regards to NMFS ANPR on the 20 Threatened Coral species.

 

[Kyle918]

For those looking for a quick and easy way to voice their opinion may I suggest simply stating your support for the PIJAC Aquatic Committee's position . . .

Comment: Regulations.gov

PIJAC Aquatic Committee Response



Something as simple as:

Dear NMFS,

I fully support the comments and proposals made by the PIJAC Aquatic Committee in regards to NMFS ANPR on the 20 Threatened Coral species.

I agree.

I am working on my comment as well and will donate to the cause. I've only been in this hobby for about a year but I am deeply passionate about my reef. I finally found my hobby and what really makes gives me joy, only for this to be presented to me? It is extremly disheartening.

I am truthfully shocked that so little people have commented on this. Why do people just seemingly ignore or discount certain things, especially something that threatens continuing the very thing most of us hold dear??

I understand that some people may not be able to argue further than just the fact that they want to keep their fish tank but I encourage people to donate to committees that can help to speak for the hobby as a whole.

 

[PIPSTER]

BUMP!

More comments needed!!!
this should be a sticky...no-brainer!

 

[alin2]

For those looking for a quick and easy way to voice their opinion may I suggest simply stating your support for the PIJAC Aquatic Committee's position . . .

Comment: Regulations.gov

PIJAC Aquatic Committee Response



Something as simple as:

Dear NMFS,

I fully support the comments and proposals made by the PIJAC Aquatic Committee in regards to NMFS ANPR on the 20 Threatened Coral species.

Done. And donation given to PIJAC ADF.

 

[power boat jim]

Posted this to the website:

Before any action is taken please take a SCIENTIFIC approach to this issue. Making it illegal for the average citizen to have possession of any of the proposed corals will do far more harm then good. You would possibly be removing from circulation the worlds largest supply of coral "seed" there is.

In addition, the decline of coral reefs can be better traced to global warming, acidification of the oceans and last but certainly not least untreated waste being dumped into the worlds seas. Reduce these influences just a little and the resultes of reef health will benefit to a far greater degree then taking away a hobby that probably could replenish some of the world reefs if it came to that.

 

[JPMagyar]

Posted this to the website:

Before any action is taken please take a SCIENTIFIC approach to this issue. Making it illegal for the average citizen to have possession of any of the proposed corals will do far more harm then good. You would possibly be removing from circulation the worlds largest supply of coral "seed" there is.

In addition, the decline of coral reefs can be better traced to global warming, acidification of the oceans and last but certainly not least untreated waste being dumped into the worlds seas. Reduce these influences just a little and the resultes of reef health will benefit to a far greater degree then taking away a hobby that probably could replenish some of the world reefs if it came to that.

Great post Jim. We just need to keep this issue front and center.

 

[PIPSTER]

Bumping for comments.

As some of you have seen, some people apparently think us hobbyists don't have any say about this, in regards to personal possession, domestic aquaculture, trading, selling, etc. of these corals...I have posted direct quotes from the statement of the .gov site.

For example, we can exempt from regulations activities that may take listed corals but ultimately provide an overall conservation benefit.

This is a good opportunity for comment regarding domestic aquaculture, especially benefits of further domestic propagation of collected coral.

Specifically, we are soliciting information including the following:...(5) specific activities that should be excepted from any prohibitions that may be applied because they either provide a conservation benefit or do not detract from the conservation of these species, with associated justification;...7) the economic costs and benefits likely to result from protective regulations

So, why not list domestic propagation and possession as providing a conservation benefit, and explain how they do not detract from the conservation of these species? And the lack of benefits and the expense that lumping possession and domestic propogation in with banning wild collection would pose.

 

[username in use]

I suggest some of the people in here up in arms spend a moment to read the linked article in one of the other top threads right now.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2476256

 

[power boat jim]

I suggest some of the people in here up in arms spend a moment to read the linked article in one of the other top threads right now.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2476256

Just read the article. Anyone who thinks the public should stop taking part in entering comments to a public website that is asking for comments looses credibility from the word go. Every one is free to participate in the process no matter what their agenda, level of education or concerns are.

 

[username in use]

That wasn't his point at all.

 

[power boat jim]

That wasn't his point at all.

I believe that it was a big part of it, otherwise why discourage people from participating in the process? Why does he get to decide what is relevent and what isnt. Why not let the folks who put out the request for information decide that. Aside from that Im also not convinced he is correct in his assumptions. He presents a less catostrohic chain of events baised on what his intrepration is of a govenment document. I hope he is right but It doesnt look like it to me.

 

[killinit123]

You might have your point, but this is a hobby, for our pleasure. It is nothing more than that. Sure, there are some businesses that will suffer, but they will adapt some how. There are more dire proposals like banning bluefin tuna fishing. The people behind these bans might be a little worried that we will collect, fish, hunt until extinction. It wouldnt be the first time humans have done so. There will always be two sides to an argument. Im sure there are some that say Rhinos are doing fine. I will er on the side of caution.

I think you speak for yourself when you say this is simply a hobby to all of us. this is not the case for me as I am in the process of setting up a conservation fund and farm for corals. this is a way of life for me and it is also a matter of protecting natural reefs. but at the same time we can protect them all we want but that will do absolutely nothing if we don't educate people on this sensitive subject. its not the hobby that endangers natural reefs its the human race as a whole and our selfishness when it comes to nature. and I'm speaking of all aspects of nature not just reefs. we take it for granted each and everyday and we do absolutely nothing about it as a whole. by protecting reefs we do nothing to stop them from dying.. this matter needs to be solved on a global scale buy reducing green house emmissions. I mean come on we have the technology to run hydrogen powered machines with clean by products and we have the technology to run cars on water!!! thats H2o people!! I mean come on now!! every time someone figures this out the government shuts them down why? because there's no profit for the government in non-fossil fuel running engines. personally i could care less about the ban on these corals are the police or NOAA going to come to my house and take my corals?? probably not. the main focus should be to educate people on clean and efficient energy sources the main one being the sun.. for instance solar panels if every household in the united states had solar panels we would no longer have to pay for electricity nor would we need to rely on these energy companies for power they would actually be paying us to sell them our unused electricity. these are just two energy efficient ideas that could be implemented and change the world drastically. but why don't we do it why isn't there a ban on fossil fuels? or why isn't there a law on mandatory solar panels installed on homes? because there is no corporate profits involved in this. sorry for the rant but these are issues that could be so easily solved if we had a movement where everyone participated. but we are so set in our ways and blinded, if you will by the power of the dollar and corporate america, that we ourselves are forgetting we simply just live on this earth, and that we are slowly destroying it. sustainability is insuring that future generations have the same if not more resources available to them that we do today, we are not sustainable people and i think we have lost our way along time ago and personally i don't think we will ever be able to correct it. so forget about the "hobby" this is about the reefs themselves. reefs are a small part of the worlds ecosystem and play an important role to the grand scheme of things as does pollution and the atmosphere. if one aspect goes out of whack (which they have) then it can mean detrimental and irreversible damage to the entire worldwide ecosystem. and I think that we are coming ever so close to that threshold. so just be mindful next time you literally do anything because we are all contributors myself included but we need to act now as a whole in order to try to see any positive changes in our ever so sensitive environment.

 

[killinit123]

also I would like to add something about this MACNA video. It seems that we are approaching this battle the entirely wrong way. We make it seem like it is all about us and our "hobby" and not for the sustainability of an entire ecosystem. for instance the people who were speaking at the table kept saying that this will hurt our hobby and industry. well no **** it will!! but is this really the main argument you want to portray to NOAA?? probably not, NOAA is trying to preserve the reefs by not allowing us as hobbyists to collect corals from their natural environment. obviously this is a ridiculous argument because most, if not all corals are propagated these days. but by disproving NOAA by saying they have incorrect and inaccurate data to better ourselves as hobbyists, and leading companies that sell corals in order to continue to make profits, we are no better than NOAA themselves. what we need to do is provide evidence that us as hobbyists and coral farms etc. are in this hobby and market not just for profit and self enjoyment, but also to preserve the reefs. i think that makes for a much better argument and doesn't lead NOAA down the road that we are simply in this for our own self pleasure. just think about this scenario quickly: say a coral became extinct in the wild, lets just use elk horn as an example. if we are unable to posses trade or buy this coral in the reef community then this coral may have been extinct in the wild forever. but say the last frag was in someones home aquarium; us as hobbyists could single handily reintroduce this species back into its natural environment. not to mention the fact that by growing these in our home aquariums makes them less susceptible to disease, makes them less sensitive to fluctuations in oceanic temperature and also water chemistry. they evolve to be able to withstand these extreme conditions and therefore will be able to flourish and strive even better than before. this may not be a possible scenario if NOAA continues to ban these species for trade and propagation in our "hobby". on another note IMO NOAA's argument is pretty much the same thing as saying OK, tigers are endangered so zoos or conservationists can no longer try to better their survival in the wild by trying to breed them or raise them in captivity and reintroduce them into the wild. So my point is instead of trying to convince NOAA that these coral species aren't in fact endangered or in decline we need to shift gears and say. hey, listen these species may in fact be endangered or close to it but us as "hobbyists" and coral farmers and traders can substantially help insure their survival should these said corals be near the brink of extinction. not only that but if any do become extinct we could reintroduce a healthier and heartier version of these corals back into the wild. i think with this argument there is no real rebuttal for NOAA could possibly provide to disprove that statement.

 

[Lawman5014]

Guys the comment period for whether or not to list some of the most common stony corals we keep with a "no take" provision is right now. As of yesterday there were only 12 comments.

That's ridiculous. If they do this it will instantly become illegal to own, propagate, or transport corals as common as branching frogspawn, and some of the most common acroporas in the trade. We're literally talking about the end of the marine aquarium hobby as we know it. And it's happening now.

Please submit your comments before it's too late:

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=NOAA-NMFS-2014-0158-0001

Thanks for posting this. I just left my comment.

 

[JPMagyar]

It's important to remember that the NOAA is funded by tax dollars and as such anyone genuinely interested in making a difference should contact their government representatives and give them a full briefing. My quick synopsis would say the following:

Dear Sir,

The NOAA/NMFS has chosen to list almost 2 dozen corals as being Threatened and is proposing rules that have the potential to shut down a multi-billion dollar industry namely the aquarium trade, but the data used to make this ruling has been proven to be inconsistent both in derivation and result by the leading global coral biologist J.E. Veron.

I ask you to do what you can to contact the NOAA and tell them that their use of false data to list a species as Threatened under the ESA both diminishes the value of the listing and the value of the law itself.