North Dakota Mini-Ocean
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Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
The calcium and kalk reactors aren't online yet (this weekend they will be). I have been dosing two-part. I am scheduled to do a 100 gallon water change this weekend anyway. That will help the situation I assume.
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
my ACIII probe. I tested it against the calibration fluids, vinegar and kalk mix. They all checked out very close to what they should be. Yeah, I shut off the the skimmer.
jnarowe
New member
??? no test kit? I would not trust the probe if it is reading that far out of range. I don't believe it for one minute. What is the ORP at?
Is the temp probe reading correctly? The probes are indexed to the temp probe, so either it or the pH probe, or both could be fouled or otherwise giving a false reading. Had you calibrated the probes?
When you see an anomoly like that, you really have to dig deep, use test kits, etc. Check things like if the probe fouled, not plugged in correctly, cycle the controller, etc. Also understand where the tank "should" be at depending on where you are in the light cycle.
Then soak the probe in vinegar, clean with a toothbrush, and rinse well in RO/DI water. THEN calibrate it, and check the reading. Don't start dosing or messing around until you are very sure of the information you are getting.
Probes fail, get fouled, the connectors can corode...any number of things can mess the readings up. I cannot emphasize enough you must have decent quality test kits to verify any probe anomoly. Using the probe to check itself, whether against a known agent or other methiod is not sound science.
And if you remember from the Neptune manual, when you do the calibration routine, it does not matter what the actual reading is, just that it has stabilized, so the controller can adjust its interpretation of the probe input.
Is the temp probe reading correctly? The probes are indexed to the temp probe, so either it or the pH probe, or both could be fouled or otherwise giving a false reading. Had you calibrated the probes?
When you see an anomoly like that, you really have to dig deep, use test kits, etc. Check things like if the probe fouled, not plugged in correctly, cycle the controller, etc. Also understand where the tank "should" be at depending on where you are in the light cycle.
Then soak the probe in vinegar, clean with a toothbrush, and rinse well in RO/DI water. THEN calibrate it, and check the reading. Don't start dosing or messing around until you are very sure of the information you are getting.
Probes fail, get fouled, the connectors can corode...any number of things can mess the readings up. I cannot emphasize enough you must have decent quality test kits to verify any probe anomoly. Using the probe to check itself, whether against a known agent or other methiod is not sound science.
And if you remember from the Neptune manual, when you do the calibration routine, it does not matter what the actual reading is, just that it has stabilized, so the controller can adjust its interpretation of the probe input.
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
I totally understand you. I don't have a pH test kit...its one of the ones I have on order. The temp probe seems to read correctly. I did calibrate the pH probe. I followed the directions EXACTLY. The ORP is at 465. I actually calibrated the pH probe 4-5 times. Then I tried a new probe. Then I tried another. Every time I would calibrate and then hit "run" on the ACIII. So then I tested the probes aganst the calibration fluids.
The reason I started this in the first place was the ORP seemed high (465) and I wanted to try another probe and I read the ORP probe did not need to be calibrated. I got a weird reading from the new probe (155), So i plugged the old one back in and got the (465) reading again.
Then I calibrated the Conductivity probe with some solutions and that one checks out against my refractometer.
I am not sure if the temp is reading correct (have nothing to test it against).
The fish, coral, and shrimp seem very good. No heavy breathing, no STN or RTN, nothing that alarms me.
Hmmmm...
The reason I started this in the first place was the ORP seemed high (465) and I wanted to try another probe and I read the ORP probe did not need to be calibrated. I got a weird reading from the new probe (155), So i plugged the old one back in and got the (465) reading again.
Then I calibrated the Conductivity probe with some solutions and that one checks out against my refractometer.
I am not sure if the temp is reading correct (have nothing to test it against).
The fish, coral, and shrimp seem very good. No heavy breathing, no STN or RTN, nothing that alarms me.
Hmmmm...
jnarowe
New member
Pretty high ORP but that came about after you kicked in the new skimmer. When I started my system I had high readings too.
I am not sure what you mean by "tested the probes aganst the calibration fluids". Is that called for in the manual? No pH pen either huh? Sounds like you are trying to troubleshoot it well but I am very suspicious of the high pH reading. And the new ORP probe should be factory calibrated.
Another issue that could be causing interference is stray electrical current. Does your temp. probe have a metal protrusion or a rubber cover? Have you done any electrical testing since the system was set up? testing for stray current is not hard at all, and these probes can be affected by it (especially the conductivity probe). So can the old style temp. probes with the metal. They can get plated very easily and give false readings, which then affect all the others.
Have you actually re-booted the controller? I will unplug mine from the power (and battery backup) sometimes to kind of get a fresh start.
This stuff can be vexing. The first thing I would do is get on the horn to Curt tomorrow morning and get some direct help. He is very good at getting to the root of problems. Any LFS, PetSmart, etc. around you to pick up a pH test kit? Even a crappy one will tell you if you are that far off.
Based on what you have discussed, I am going to bet it is actually the temp. probe that is causing the problem. But it's not a bad contact. When the probe is not connected correctly, you get low readings, not high. Even being off by just a couple of degrees can throw all the other probes way off.
How close are the probes together?
I am not sure what you mean by "tested the probes aganst the calibration fluids". Is that called for in the manual? No pH pen either huh? Sounds like you are trying to troubleshoot it well but I am very suspicious of the high pH reading. And the new ORP probe should be factory calibrated.
Another issue that could be causing interference is stray electrical current. Does your temp. probe have a metal protrusion or a rubber cover? Have you done any electrical testing since the system was set up? testing for stray current is not hard at all, and these probes can be affected by it (especially the conductivity probe). So can the old style temp. probes with the metal. They can get plated very easily and give false readings, which then affect all the others.
Have you actually re-booted the controller? I will unplug mine from the power (and battery backup) sometimes to kind of get a fresh start.
This stuff can be vexing. The first thing I would do is get on the horn to Curt tomorrow morning and get some direct help. He is very good at getting to the root of problems. Any LFS, PetSmart, etc. around you to pick up a pH test kit? Even a crappy one will tell you if you are that far off.
Based on what you have discussed, I am going to bet it is actually the temp. probe that is causing the problem. But it's not a bad contact. When the probe is not connected correctly, you get low readings, not high. Even being off by just a couple of degrees can throw all the other probes way off.
How close are the probes together?
ORP of 465 without ozone is probably not accurate, just a suggestion: start a post in the chemistry forum, it's monitored by Randy Holmes-Farley
I agree with Jonathan, don't do anything until you verify the ph you are getting, especially since your livestock appears to be doing well.
I agree with Jonathan, don't do anything until you verify the ph you are getting, especially since your livestock appears to be doing well.
jnarowe
New member
And when you call Curt, he will ask some questions, one of which I forgot to ask last night. What is your temp. offset? It's usually between -1.2 and -2.2 IIRC. Mine is at -1.8 right now. So check that before you call. And don't forget that the ORP has a pH compensation as well. When you install and/or calibrate, this is updated.
there just happens to be a thread about high ph in the chemistry forum:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1496076
here is one of Randy's comments:
"Unless you are adding limewater or using artificial rock, there is almost no chance the pH is really above 8.5"
High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1496076
here is one of Randy's comments:
"Unless you are adding limewater or using artificial rock, there is almost no chance the pH is really above 8.5"
High pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.htm
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
Thanks Jon. I still have done nothing and tank looks good (can't tell 100% because lights are off). but no floating fish! 
I will check my temp offset right now. The temp probe is the one with the metal tip.
When I was talking about "checking against the fluids" I stuck the probe in the fluids after the calibration was complete to see what it read against the pH fluids (like 7 and 9). I also checked it against vinegar (like 2 pH).
How do I test for stray current?
I will call curt right now to see if i can figure our some of this stuff over the phone.
Thanks again!
I will check my temp offset right now. The temp probe is the one with the metal tip.
When I was talking about "checking against the fluids" I stuck the probe in the fluids after the calibration was complete to see what it read against the pH fluids (like 7 and 9). I also checked it against vinegar (like 2 pH).
How do I test for stray current?
I will call curt right now to see if i can figure our some of this stuff over the phone.
Thanks again!
jnarowe
New member
I don't believe that Neptune sells the probes with the metal tips. The last one I got specifically stated to leave the rubber cap on.
And you should be using calibration fluids 7 and 10.
Testing for stray current is fairly easy. Take a continuity meter (any multi-meter should have this feature) and put one lead in the water and one to a known ground like the ground of a plug. DO NOT screw that part up!
Any reading on the meter means you have stray current. Grounding probes will help but you should test each piece of equipment by turning off one at a time and testing for stray current. Hopefully this will isolate the source. And please keep in mind that salt creep is a wicked conductor so you need to be extremely careful about that.
Can't wait to hear what you and Curt figure out!
And you should be using calibration fluids 7 and 10.
Testing for stray current is fairly easy. Take a continuity meter (any multi-meter should have this feature) and put one lead in the water and one to a known ground like the ground of a plug. DO NOT screw that part up!
Any reading on the meter means you have stray current. Grounding probes will help but you should test each piece of equipment by turning off one at a time and testing for stray current. Hopefully this will isolate the source. And please keep in mind that salt creep is a wicked conductor so you need to be extremely careful about that.
Can't wait to hear what you and Curt figure out!
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
The ACIII Pro Probe does have a metal tip. There was not a cap on this one. There is a smaller temp probe for the PX1000 that has a cap with no exposed metal tip.
jnarowe
New member
Interesting. The most recent one I purchased had a note in itsaying to leave the cap on, and it is working well, with my ACIII Pro.
My last one had the metal probe, but would plate pretty quickly, especially before I installed grounding probes. You did not mention the distance between the probes, but I would assume theyare all next to each other with teh exception of the conductivity probe, which should be isolated from the rest in a drip cup.
My last one had the metal probe, but would plate pretty quickly, especially before I installed grounding probes. You did not mention the distance between the probes, but I would assume theyare all next to each other with teh exception of the conductivity probe, which should be isolated from the rest in a drip cup.
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
The conductivity is just in another chamber of the sump. And the probes are within an inch of each other.
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
I can try to put the cap back on the temp probe (although I think that one is actually working).
Reefaquariumnut
Premium Member
Hmmmm. I will call curt. I thought it said to remove the cap, but I could be wrong. I know the pH and ORP had caps with fluids, but I don't remember the temp having fluid.
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