Open letter to the LED industry

[EvMiBo]

Only one gap which can be observed is near 550nm - that light is not so important in pigment built, because in this area there is not so many GFP pigments

I have a question, in the chart above, many species listed sit on maximum absorption spectrum of around 580nm, how do you achieve this in the LED lighting system? Green LEDs?

Yes, I'm interested in this region as well. Mostly what seems to be approximately 575-585nm. I see that the PS S starts peaking again at about 575 wouldn't it be more beneficial to have it peak a little earlier? Or does it not matter as much still because corals will have other excitation pigments as well? Sorry, this is all new to me but very interesting.

Thanks for all the info, especially PSRD!

Edit: also, as a pretty new Hyperion R2 owner I have a couple of questions:
I have the cool whites at 35-40% after reading through this thread. Would you also recommend tweaking green, orange and red some? I'm keeping my blues high 90-100%. I don't have the R2 graph in front of me but I remember there is a smoother downward slope from blue towards green - can I influence the vertical jumps (like on the S) by tweaking green, orange and red considering the white is already reduced (as mentioned above). If yes or no what do you recommend for good "viewing color" and health?

 

[TropTrea]

They only issue with the chart on Florescence from Pacific Sun is that it is far from complete. There are over 100 known florescent proteins found in corals. Besides this do to the structuring on differences in some corals the same florescent pigment can absorb different wave lengths.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Hello PSRD,

Thanks for the informative posts and sources. I enjoy reading your post a lot.

I have a question, in the chart above, many species listed sit on maximum absorption spectrum of around 580nm, how do you achieve this in the LED lighting system? Green LEDs?

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that ;-)
For that range of spectrum we are using orange/amber leds from Cree - they perfectly hit this area and we repeated it many times asked by Customers - please dont turn them off - they are very important in pigmentation process.
Many Customers adjust light "by eye" - for best looking tank(initially) and they decrease overal power of this channel but it's not so good because without that range, some of sps will lost teir pigment after longer time..
That "orange peak" you can see on this spectrum chart very clearly:

and also here - please remember that this wide spectrum is made by discrete led channels - without using many of white leds which are finally adjusted by Customers to very low levels(please try to find anyLED lamps user - AI, Ecotech, GHL etc which are using their lamps with white channel working on 100% ;-) Good luck if you will find lamp working on 70%, usually its about 40-50%.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

They only issue with the chart on Florescence from Pacific Sun is that it is far from complete. There are over 100 known florescent proteins found in corals. Besides this do to the structuring on differences in some corals the same florescent pigment can absorb different wave lengths.

You have right, there is many other fluo proteins not listed by us - but not also listed by any other manufacturer.. Maybe Im wrong, but I dont think that any other manufacturer tried to do his "homework" and measuring lights on different depth in natural environment - comparing it to achieved colors in corals tissue and overal lighing performance.
That's why we started it almost 3 years ago and based on avaialble scientist documantations(also that no available for open publish).
I'm sure that you have read this thread from beginning and you saw that we reposted charts not only for DsRed flu proteins - but also for other, a specially for GFP - most frequently occurring in the tissues of coral.

Regards

Przemek

 

[TankCla]

For that range of spectrum we are using orange/amber leds from Cree... please dont turn them off - they are very important in pigmentation process...

Interesting how LEDs will not contribute in growth of majority of SPS that we are keeping in out tanks (pocillopora & acropora).

Full article here.

 

[nynick]

Interesting how LEDs will not contribute in growth of majority of SPS that we are keeping in out tanks (pocillopora & acropora).

The corals don't care what is producing the light. If it is led or what ever doesn't matter. That study is done for specific fixtures and wavelengths.

You can not make broad blanket statements like that. No one is debating, at least not seriously, if led can grow coral. We are debating if led's that can grow corals like MH or T5 are available to the hobby.

 

[TropTrea]

You have right, there is many other fluo proteins not listed by us - but not also listed by any other manufacturer.. Maybe Im wrong, but I dont think that any other manufacturer tried to do his "homework" and measuring lights on different depth in natural environment - comparing it to achieved colors in corals tissue and overal lighing performance.
That's why we started it almost 3 years ago and based on avaialble scientist documantations(also that no available for open publish).
I'm sure that you have read this thread from beginning and you saw that we reposted charts not only for DsRed flu proteins - but also for other, a specially for GFP - most frequently occurring in the tissues of coral.

Regards

Przemek

I did not mean to cut you down in comparison to any other manufacturer. I'm sorry if I made you think that way.

My point is regardless of the lighting source MH, T-5, LED or anything else every light fixture has its advantages as well as disadvantages. When we start looking at Florescense in Corals we have additional issues when were looking at the spectrums. There is no one out there will make theperfect lighting fixture for everyone.

There are three major points to consider is selecting a lighting fixture.
1. Coral Growth
2. Florescent pigmentation
3. Reflective colors.

To get the maximium of either 2 or 3 you are fighting an unending balance war. If you want to show the floreseent colors to there max you need to target only there excitation currents. Other wave lenghts will increase the reflective colors which lessens the contrast which makes the florescence pop out. IF you want the reflective colors to pop then then the florescewnse will fall off into the background.

This is where you have the agruements constantly between individuals as to which part of the sectrum is best. Some individuals love a lot of Florescense. OThers want to see clear reflective colors. Some argue a deep blue tank looks best as it looks more natural from deep diving experience. Some like a more neutral white tank as it shows off there fish and reflective colors more.

Now we add in the all the different florescent proteins. There are hundreds of them with usualy no more than three predominant in any one coral. But each has a need for a different wave light of light to excite it. If I recall the range of different excitation wavelenghts range form 380nm to about 620 nm. Which is close to the reflective range as well. So idealy to bring out the florescent you need to target just those pigments that are in your corals which you want to floresce.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

I think that you have agree that we(all together) dont know all existing proteins in corals tissue - and its quite difficult to talk abotu their lighting requirments(excitation/emission peaks etc)...
We can only compare light spectrum(emitted by leds) to other light sources with proven efficiency(growth and pigmentation on SPS corals) and try to "produce" similar looking spectrum charts..
In fact - even in the nature many corals dont have so strong pigments like in some ULNS tanks with perfectly fitted T5 tubes(for example).
Thats why we decided to use discrete spectrum built(instead of using many white leds for wide spectrum output) because there is no other way to find "gold point" between strongest corals luminescence(fluorescence) and reflectance.
In other points I can agree.

 

[ssdawood]

I always wanted to ask you this Prezemek. Why not throw in one or two white leds per cluster. We know that yellow and green leds are not efficient.

 

[Rognin]

This thread opened my eyes to my upcoming tank. Three G3 Pro's with four 54 T5's and hardly any whites. Bam!

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@ssdawood
As you know it took a lot of time to find the best way .. Every year we spend few weeks doing experiments in natural environments(Bali/Lombok) - in this year we will do it also(lighting measurments of SPS corals on different depth up to 20m). It will give us informations about species - their light intensity requirments and exact light spectrum which is delivered to them.
With that informations and our discrete LED channels we will try to simulate closest as possible spectrum readings to natural sunlight(on the same depth).
We are preparing special equipment which will alow us to do it.
First Hyperion R2/Triton R2 series was released many months before companies like Ecotech/AI started their multichanel fixtures.
Based on our experiences we designed Hyperion S(SMT matrix) and now all our products will go by this way.
In some panels(like Hyperion R2+) wedont removed completly white leds - there are two chip(natural white) which are responsible for increase light output in 540-570nm area - which bring little warmer light than in Hyperion S(charts for both models you can find above). That panels are 100% compatible with existing Hyperion R2 hardware, so only LED boards need to be replaced.

Regards

Przemek

 

[calistyle]

Great thread. I recently ditched my Radion Pro (due to shadowing). Also, I had decent colors up top, but bottom stuff seemed dull. If I tried to turn up light too high to benefit lower placed corals, some of the top SPS would get mad.

You can chop the 2nd part (colors) to coral placement, but the shadowing is an issue.

Radion Pro before I sold it vs old t5 fixture old bulbs (waiting for new fixture)

 

[Fredfish]

... Every year we spend few weeks doing experiments in natural environments(Bali/Lombok)...

How do taxes and business trips work in Poland? I think I like your business model.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

How do taxes and business trips work in Poland? I think I like your business model.

Haha.. :crazy1:
It's not workig so good as you think.. Of course, all needed hardware/equipment like underwater spectrometers, diving equipment etc can be calculated on "cost" side in our company finance balance but all other - like flights,hotels, food, living etc - not.. (unfortunately... )
So, there is a lot of work but everybody from our team love that kind of job
We are also mariculture company and have our own propagation farm so we know that corals requirments from both sides - natural environment and after shipping care..
But I have to say - it's really amazing work and I'm glad that I can work here .. :bounce3:

 

[TropTrea]

I personally like your Metis Hyperion R2. However it is not anywhere near my budget range. I would need to 3 units totaling $1,999.00 which is lot to invest in for just the lights. The big thing I believe is you more money invested in these as far as 8 channels of wireless controls which brings up the price considerably.

A thought for you and many other of the higher quality lighting manufacturers would be if you created a more basic series as well. Perhaps a simple two cord system where on channel 1 your running primarly the Blue end of the spectrum with the cool whites on one channel and for the other channel your running the red end of the spectrum with the neutral whites. Each channel would then have a pot controlling intensity that could be set to the desires personal liking. With cycling controlled by a user supplied timer.

From DIY build experience you could probably drop the cost to half of the deluxe model and you now have a unit that sell much easier for the more intermediate as well as beginners level.

Having been in the retail end of with a small aquarium/pet store I will say budget was a big factor in sales. For every individual willing to spend $10,000 for a fantastic aquarium there were 20 people wanting to spend under $1,000 for a nice looking set up. If they could not get what they wanted they would walk away with nothing. Yet for the two of the twenty that would get the smaller set up in there budget they would be back 3 months or 6 months later to get something better or bigger.

The big problem with lighting today is for the person wanting a 125 gallon tank he only has so many selections. He can get the low cost beginners set up with perhaps 125 watts of light for $250 and then end up unhappy with the results because it is not enough light or the wrong spectrum. His other Choice is to with a premium system like yours for $2,000 and with no to little experience he gets hit with the sticker shock and two out three of three times goes with either the inadequate lighting or does not buy at all. I

 

[Every1jockzjay]

Awesome thread thanks for all the info!! Im just reallly curious why i dont see any LED/t5 or compact fluorescent combos...it would solve alot of led problems and the bulk of the energy would still be to power the leds, MH gets t5 help loll...wouldnt a 120w led fixure with say one or two Flouros be pretty much optimal very high quality lighting? I think i will try to do it myself see how it looks, i just dont have much room over my small tank

 

[jda]

ATI has a whole line of LED and T5 lights.

 

[TropTrea]

ATI has a whole line of LED and T5 lights.

Yes however ATI combos are very T-5 heavy with the LED's used only as supplement the T-5. I have done several Combos on the DIY level with roughly 104 Watts of T-5's and 150 Watts of LED's that worked fantastically on 75 gallon SPS to 120 gallon LPS tanks.

ATI's smallest fixture with a combo for a 120 Gallon is 216 Watts of T-5's and 225 Watts of LED's. With there premium fixture being 432 Watts of T-5's and 225 Watts of LED's.

 

[rtparty]

ATI's smallest fixture with a combo for a 120 Gallon is 216 Watts of T-5's and 225 Watts of LED's. With there premium fixture being 432 Watts of T-5's and 225 Watts of LED's.

Not exactly true. A standard 120 is 48x24x24. Meaning a 4x39w and 2x75w ATI LED PowerModule would cover it with very little issue. That equates to 156w of T5s and 150w of LEDs if you run everything at 100%. However, no one is running the ATI LEDs at full blown capacity. Most tune the reds way down and the whites get turned down as well.

Now if we are talking about a full blown SPS tank then you would obviously need more but a mixed reef could easily be lit with less than you state. The LED PowerModules are a different beast. The 4 bulb models cover 24" with ease. Only 30"+ really need the 8 bulb model.

 

[TropTrea]

Not exactly true. A standard 120 is 48x24x24. Meaning a 4x39w and 2x75w ATI LED PowerModule would cover it with very little issue. That equates to 156w of T5s and 150w of LEDs if you run everything at 100%. However, no one is running the ATI LEDs at full blown capacity. Most tune the reds way down and the whites get turned down as well.

Now if we are talking about a full blown SPS tank then you would obviously need more but a mixed reef could easily be lit with less than you state. The LED PowerModules are a different beast. The 4 bulb models cover 24" with ease. Only 30"+ really need the 8 bulb model.

Most people with 48" long tanks will used 48" long fixtures. This is to avoid any possible fall off on the ends of the tank. but we are still talking more wattage on the T-5's than on the LED's, which is my main point. With a Good LED fixture you only need a little T-5 supplementation if you need any. With the multi channels there is also the issue that if have 150 Watts of LED's that is what you have only when they are turned up at 100%. With most people running one the blues at near full power the reds at half power or less, and the whites at 75% or less your using only about 110 watts of LED's and close to twice that from the less efficient T-5's.

If I were designing a multi channel combination for a 120 gallon gallon tank Id be looking for something in the range of 116 watts of T-5's. and 250 Watts of LED power considering the average channel would be run at about 75% unless you were into extremely high light demanding corals.

However the amount of wattage on LED;'s is very arbutary dependent on which LED's are used by the manufacturers of the fixture. Right now the range of LED's out there on the market range from 70 to 140 Lumns per watt. While lumns means little to us compared to PAR it gives an idea of the efficiency of the LEDs.