Open letter to the LED industry

[Every1jockzjay]

Im a begginer/novice and want to leave this thread to the experienced and professionals, so this will b my last post... I have no doubt leds can grow coral, my diy royal blue/ white fixture, with whites turned way down, is doin really good for me personally...im curious is a small amount of t5, just to throw a number say half the wattage of the leds you run, will this possibly give the elite colors that people want to see? The led industry should be alot more innovative then me and i alone can think of at least a half dozen ways you can make a combo fixture at a reasonable cost to the average reefer...imho MOST of the totm led fixtures are to expensive, without groundbreaking technology. I can make a compact flouresent around my heatsink for 50-100$ Personally i feel the led industry is severely slacking on innovation and design, and the ebay leds probably outsell them all. Im not trying to bash leds just the totm designers, with few exceptions like pacific sun, or any company that is on their level .. IF there was an led fixture for 300-500$ with compact flouro or t5 built in,OR NOT and it was proven to get you extreme results i would consider it... Until then i will diy and maybe try to supplement with t5 diy... I would like to hear results for this combo... I dont think its an answer to fix leds but if it could b the best of both worlds for now then hey why not...neway im done posting i just wanna hear from the pros!

 

[rtparty]

Most people with 48" long tanks will used 48" long fixtures.

I think you'd be surprised how many people run shorter fixtures over their tanks. There was a poll once asking about it once.

 

[TropTrea]

IF there was an led fixture for 300-500$ with compact flouro or t5 built in,OR NOT and it was proven to get you extreme results i would consider it...

This is the point I'm trying to get at. Lighting for corals to flourish is the main thing in any lighting fixtures. Most manufacturers either hit the high end of the market with there fixtures costing $1,500 to $3,000 to light up a 120 gallon tank with all the bells a whistles that are nice barging points but do not add much to corals themselves. Then you have the other end of the spectrum that is making low cost lighting systems which are only adequate with some of the low light demanding corals. There is no middle ground.

The big sellers in lighting fixtures for the general public are the long standing lines sold by the pet stores, big box stores and some of the larger internet sellers. While there mark up may be lower they are offering something that is in is the price range of the beginner bt too often cause him to be discouraged because after buying a $200 light fixture he still does not have enough or the right light for growing corals.

What is his choice in most cases he is discouraged and eventually drops out of the market. If as a DIY'er I can build a $300 fixture for a 120 gallon tank that grows great corals and gives fantastic colors I see no reason why a similar fixture cannot be put on the market for under $500. In reality if could even be cheaper than the DIY fixture as the manufacturer has the ability to buy parts in bulk at a fraction of what I pay for them.

Today the DIYer can build a good basic LED system for under $1.50 per watt. You only need a max of 2 watts per gallon with top quality LED's today to grow any kind of coral. If the manufacturers would take out the bells a whistles on some models to reduce price there sales would increase fantastically as they would not be driving people out of reefs because of sticker shock.

 

[conix67]

This is the point I'm trying to get at. Lighting for corals to flourish is the main thing in any lighting fixtures. Most manufacturers either hit the high end of the market with there fixtures costing $1,500 to $3,000 to light up a 120 gallon tank with all the bells a whistles that are nice barging points but do not add much to corals themselves. Then you have the other end of the spectrum that is making low cost lighting systems which are only adequate with some of the low light demanding corals. There is no middle ground.

The big sellers in lighting fixtures for the general public are the long standing lines sold by the pet stores, big box stores and some of the larger internet sellers. While there mark up may be lower they are offering something that is in is the price range of the beginner bt too often cause him to be discouraged because after buying a $200 light fixture he still does not have enough or the right light for growing corals.

What is his choice in most cases he is discouraged and eventually drops out of the market. If as a DIY'er I can build a $300 fixture for a 120 gallon tank that grows great corals and gives fantastic colors I see no reason why a similar fixture cannot be put on the market for under $500. In reality if could even be cheaper than the DIY fixture as the manufacturer has the ability to buy parts in bulk at a fraction of what I pay for them.

Today the DIYer can build a good basic LED system for under $1.50 per watt. You only need a max of 2 watts per gallon with top quality LED's today to grow any kind of coral. If the manufacturers would take out the bells a whistles on some models to reduce price there sales would increase fantastically as they would not be driving people out of reefs because of sticker shock.

I agree 100%. I doubt many manufacturers are really doing any research at all - which is why you must know (as a reefer) what your tank needs and look for what you need yourself. This is unfortunate for those who are entering this hobby without sufficient background knowledge.

 

[TropTrea]

I agree 100%. I doubt many manufacturers are really doing any research at all - which is why you must know (as a reefer) what your tank needs and look for what you need yourself. This is unfortunate for those who are entering this hobby without sufficient background knowledge.

Well the research angle I will say probably varies considerably between manufacturers. Some manufacturers like Pacific Sun probably spend a lot on research compared to the low cost fixture manufacturers. I'm actually a semi retired and have worked in and RD as well as new product development and testing. What happens often is you get market evaluations and when you try to make a product that is in the lower range of the price spectrum a big consideration is can it be sold for less than the competitors equivalent. Add to that that there is usually a lag that can be one year or more from the initial prototype design to the final marketing in LED technology this ends up not putting out the best possible product before the competition.

So in the corporate world you have two opposing views. One is how to get the biggest share of the market with the lowest price. The other is how do we offer everything the competition offers plus something extra to create a desire for our system. Usually one of the two views is more dominant in the corporation and that is often leaves a gap that could have been filled with compromise or a third product line.

From my experience in owning a store I would often see a customer come in looking at a 75 gallon tank. He would look at a salt water tank and want to buy a set up for $1,000. Since I sold both fresh and salt water water I used to piece the systems together. His tank stand and hood combo might be $500 then when you look at filtration he needs to spend $150 for fresh water and can get away with spending $400 for the reef tank. He moves to the lighting and this can be done for $100 on the fresh water but when you only have something reliable to sell him at over $1000 for the reef he immediately jumps back. Out of 20 people wanting that 75 Gallon Reef tank 1 will compromise and go with either a smaller 30 gallon tank, 2 will compromise and go with the 75 gallon fresh water tank, and if your lucky one will come back the next day and spend $3,00 on the 75 gallon reef tank with everything top of the line. Not having a good lighting system for a reef at $300 means you lost out on 17 of those possible customers. So what does the average store do but sells him an inferior light that was never designed to grow corals, as well as inferior filtration and no water movement system. Six months later you will find that system on Craigs list.

 

[conix67]

Well the research angle I will say probably varies considerably between manufacturers. Some manufacturers like Pacific Sun probably spend a lot on research compared to the low cost fixture manufacturers. I'm actually a semi retired and have worked in and RD as well as new product development and testing. What happens often is you get market evaluations and when you try to make a product that is in the lower range of the price spectrum a big consideration is can it be sold for less than the competitors equivalent. Add to that that there is usually a lag that can be one year or more from the initial prototype design to the final marketing in LED technology this ends up not putting out the best possible product before the competition.

So in the corporate world you have two opposing views. One is how to get the biggest share of the market with the lowest price. The other is how do we offer everything the competition offers plus something extra to create a desire for our system. Usually one of the two views is more dominant in the corporation and that is often leaves a gap that could have been filled with compromise or a third product line.

From my experience in owning a store I would often see a customer come in looking at a 75 gallon tank. He would look at a salt water tank and want to buy a set up for $1,000. Since I sold both fresh and salt water water I used to piece the systems together. His tank stand and hood combo might be $500 then when you look at filtration he needs to spend $150 for fresh water and can get away with spending $400 for the reef tank. He moves to the lighting and this can be done for $100 on the fresh water but when you only have something reliable to sell him at over $1000 for the reef he immediately jumps back. Out of 20 people wanting that 75 Gallon Reef tank 1 will compromise and go with either a smaller 30 gallon tank, 2 will compromise and go with the 75 gallon fresh water tank, and if your lucky one will come back the next day and spend $3,00 on the 75 gallon reef tank with everything top of the line. Not having a good lighting system for a reef at $300 means you lost out on 17 of those possible customers. So what does the average store do but sells him an inferior light that was never designed to grow corals, as well as inferior filtration and no water movement system. Six months later you will find that system on Craigs list.

I'm sure out of the 20 people perhaps 1 or no one is reading forums like this, or doing independent study outside of what the shop recommends.

I think the whole reef ecosystem itself is still be studied actively and doesn't help much with manufacturer's independent research effort. In the end, owning a reef tank is still not a mainstream hobby and simply having money can guarantee a success - well unless you have a LOT of money

Anyway, what I'd like to see is that manufacturers come up with detailed guides on which product of theirs to be used with the type of tank - freshwater (fish only, planted, etc) and reef (fish only, corals - various categories, etc) which will help with success of their tank and get involved even more - and in the end the manufacturers will be able to increase customer base (instead of most people quitting hobby after 6 months) thus enjoying more success.

As for the situation of LED lighting system, I see many claim that it just doesn't work for them compared to MH or T5s. It really doesn't help that some experts(?) post videos on youtube, utilizing high end LED fixtures with conclusion that "it woks ok for some corals, but many corals just don't like it" - not very scientific conclusion but many will be weary of LED fixtures and a lot will agree.

This is where the manufacturers can probably help out hobbyists - they have more resources for R&D than individual reefers, or they can organize community based research with help of reefers. Something can be done and collect information on what it is that we need to be successful with LED lights with all different types of corals....

 

[TropTrea]

As for the situation of LED lighting system, I see many claim that it just doesn't work for them compared to MH or T5s. It really doesn't help that some experts(?) post videos on youtube, utilizing high end LED fixtures with conclusion that "it woks ok for some corals, but many corals just don't like it" - not very scientific conclusion but many will be weary of LED fixtures and a lot will agree.

This is were it is important to realize that all LED systems are not the same. All LED's used in LED systems are not the same. And price unfortunately does not guarantee quality. If you have a quality LED system it is possible to have fantastic growth of the most light demanding corals in a 75 gallon tank with around 150 watts of LED lighting alone. But since the bells and whistles are added you need more. With the addition of dimming instead of 150 Watts it is advisable to move op to a minimum of 225 Watts. Then you add the costs of remote control and special effects and you tripled the cost of the basic system needed to grow corals.

Sure there is market for all the bells and whistles. But there can be a much bigger market for a basic quality system especially in tougher economic times. The light the corals sees is the same regardless of its source at any given wavelength. The coals could care less if that light was coming from a $5,000 fixture, a $500 fixture or was free from the sun.

The bottom end manufactures seemed only concerned about lumns and giving a blue tint if it is sokld as a reef light. The better manufacturers put out the right wave lenghts and intensity but add to much extra taking it out of the average persons price range.

If they sell a 1,000 fixtures a year at $1,000 each they would probably sell 10,000 of them if produced the same spectrum without the bells and whistles at under $500 each.

 

[jerrcarlson]

Fantastic discussion! I wish I had something to contribute but I am definitely tuning in for more info !

 

[fewponds]

The main problem with the LED lamps is the width of them. How can anyone hung 15cm (6in ) width source light over a 60cm width area and expect the light will spread smoothly and uniformly over it?

 

[conix67]

This is were it is important to realize that all LED systems are not the same. All LED's used in LED systems are not the same. And price unfortunately does not guarantee quality. If you have a quality LED system it is possible to have fantastic growth of the most light demanding corals in a 75 gallon tank with around 150 watts of LED lighting alone. But since the bells and whistles are added you need more. With the addition of dimming instead of 150 Watts it is advisable to move op to a minimum of 225 Watts. Then you add the costs of remote control and special effects and you tripled the cost of the basic system needed to grow corals.

Sure there is market for all the bells and whistles. But there can be a much bigger market for a basic quality system especially in tougher economic times. The light the corals sees is the same regardless of its source at any given wavelength. The coals could care less if that light was coming from a $5,000 fixture, a $500 fixture or was free from the sun.

The bottom end manufactures seemed only concerned about lumns and giving a blue tint if it is sokld as a reef light. The better manufacturers put out the right wave lenghts and intensity but add to much extra taking it out of the average persons price range.

If they sell a 1,000 fixtures a year at $1,000 each they would probably sell 10,000 of them if produced the same spectrum without the bells and whistles at under $500 each.

Not all LED systems are the same, of course, but they are awefully similar as there aren't many manufacturers of LEDs themselves. The problem is, you don't necessarily get what you pay for, so the consumers must make a wise choice, and that is a difficult one.

Yes, if someone can produce an LED fixture without bells and whistles at under $500, it will sell. However, more importantly the fixture must work for any type of reef tank, just like T5s or MH fixtures.

In the end, regardless of the price, they need to find a way to make the LED fixture work, and work well. From that point on, they can work on reducing the cost of the fixture, by controlling the build cost.

 

[mussel and hate]

The main problem with the LED lamps is the width of them. How can anyone hung 15cm (6in ) width source light over a 60cm width area and expect the light will spread smoothly and uniformly over it?

I don't know if I'd agree that uniform light spread is a problem with LED lamps, at least no more than with an HID lamp. If more width is desired raise up the lamp.

 

[nynick]

The main problem with the LED lamps is the width of them. How can anyone hung 15cm (6in ) width source light over a 60cm width area and expect the light will spread smoothly and uniformly over it?

5cm light bulbs have done this to whole rooms for over a century so.....

I must agree that T5 does give the best spread of light for growth but visually this is also why I can't stand them. I find the green house look they give very unnatural.

 

[TropTrea]

The main problem with the LED lamps is the width of them. How can anyone hung 15cm (6in ) width source light over a 60cm width area and expect the light will spread smoothly and uniformly over it?

With the variety of LED's fixtures out there today this is not a an issue. You have some trying to duplicate the point light source similar to metal hides with a cluster of LED's closely placed together. But there are others that will space the LED's in a grid evenly across the entire surface of the tank to try and duplicate the effect of a T-5 light. To me this is the least of the issues with LED's.

 

[TropTrea]

As I see it Pacific Sun right now has the best total spectrum of any manufacturer I have seen right now. They could take there Hyper LED selection and use it as a basic balancing point for LED selection for an econo line marketed to the beginner and the intermediate users. Since most Aquariums are multiples of 24" lenght they would build the modules roughly 20" long. Each module would have roughly 90 watts at full power which would be enough to handle most tanks up to 36" length. The DIY individual could build these modules for under 200 each so say they market them at even $300 each considering there cost for materials is lower and there labor cost is higher. For someone running a 48" long tank they can use two modules which would give them 180 watts. That would be enough to grow the most light demanding corals in a 75 gallon tank or for the average mixed reef in the 120 gallon range with observation of coral placement. Even with a 6' long tank they could go with 3 modules which would be enough for a 135 gallon to 180 gallon tank.

The secret is they would strip out all the fancy bells and whistles. The lighting would be divided into two channels on each modules rather than 8 or 10 channels. They would not have a remote control but a manually adjusted pot to adjust the intensity of each of these channels. There would be no timers built in but they would have two power cords one for each channel which the end user could run through his own timers. But the big thing is they would keep the bells and whistles down to a bare minimum.

I truly believe while there profit would be less than half of each of these modules there sales for these modules would jump to well over 3 times there present sales levels on then the more expensive lights. Besides that it get their name out there more and in the long run create an increase in sales for the top of the line lights.

Unfortunately since we started the discussion here on a more basic system we have not seen any comments from Pacific Sun. It would be great to hear there comments. Are we out of line on these thoughts? And if so what is there reasoning for or against them?

 

[rtparty]

Basic business would say that if Pac Sun is building the fixture for $150, they would sell it to a wholesaler for around $250 and the wholesaler would ask at least $400 but more around the $450 mark.

I know the direct pricing for quite a few of these manufactures. The cheap Chinese stuff is dirt cheap for these vendors.

 

[Fredfish]

Dennis. I can't see Pac Sun putting 9 channels on their light just for the heck of it. How do you get a specific tuning if you toss all the cyan/green/red led's on one channel?

Lets say you have a cyan, green amber and red LED for each cluster. The cyan runns at 100%, the green at 10%, the amber at 70% and the red at 30% to get you the 'right' colour. You can't do that if they are all on the same driver.

 

[chema]

I must agree that T5 does give the best spread of light for growth but visually this is also why I can't stand them. I find the green house look they give very unnatural.

I couldn't agree more with that

 

[Every1jockzjay]

Two chinease white/blues with a dual 48" t5 over a 48" tank will cost around 300-350$... And i would love to know if the result could beat two totm fixtures..
By beat them i mean in all deparments, color, growth and colors the coral shows...

 

[nynick]

Two chinease white/blues with a dual 48" t5 over a 48" tank will cost around 300-350$... And i would love to know if the result could beat two totm fixtures..
By beat them i mean in all deparments, color, growth and colors the coral shows...

Prices have come down, you can get a fixture like that for under 100 now. For the amount you mentioned you can get 2 with custom colors.

Of course they will lack some of the sophistication and only have 2 channels but you can even get them with cree lights now. If you have a top of the line sps tank I can see why you would want to spend the extra cash but most of us don't need it as we are talking a 10% or so improvement in performance. Many of us also don't want it and talking from my own perspective I am sure I would have terrible results with 9 channels as I am all thumbs. Even 2 channels is 1 more than I would really want.

I would love to see a good company like Pacific Sun make a simpler fixture. Kick *** light in a few different fixtures for looks, 12k, 16k and 20k perhaps? Then just a "good ole" knob to adjust the intensity.

I know there are heat sinks on the market now that does not require fans and it is odd why no one is using these. Imagine not having to pour in a gallon (or several in many cases) of top off every day.

 

[Every1jockzjay]

Im sayin compare these cheap fixtures, with supplemented small amount of t5 to the best led fixtures available... I dont have proof or any experience with this combo, but have a hunch that it will work better then most of the best fixtures out there... The T5 will hit the spectrums we want for much cheaper and more easy then anything else.. I would love to see how combining the two would look on paper, in person, and ide like to see the results...
This is just my theory on gettin the job done WELL without breaking the bank. Ide also like to see spectrum graphs on the cheap fixtures alone to see what they are missing, both white/blue and the so called full spectrums.