Open letter to the LED industry

Vannpytt

New member
Disclaimer: I find that postign this in any sponsor forum would be wrong, as they are equally bad.

I've been looking into LED builds for a long time now, both DIY and premade fixtures.

What always gets me is the CRI of the white LEDs. How come there are no good 8-10 000 Kelvin 90 CRI chips?

From what I can gather from Cree datasheets, the high (90ish) CRI chips are yellow (Typically ~2600 Kelvin), and the high Kelvin (Cool white, typically 6500 Kelvin, for instance, the Philips are even worse) have a very low (65-70ish) CRI.

What we, as coral keepers want, is something as close to 6000 Kelvin 90+ CRI chips, lest we want our white chips to be electricity waste over our tanks.

Reason I'm saying this is simply because I do not want "most of my light" from the "white side" of the light to be yellow or red. A MH or T5 with similar Kelvin rating would have a much better color index (makeup of color) than any white LED chip currently available.

100 CRI basically has an even spread on the color spectrum (the sun), and all corals have adapted to this (based on what's left after traveling through x amounts of water, remember red, orange and yellow goes first). When we try to grow corals with totally wrong spectrum peaks, we simply lower their defenses (kill their symbiotic algae, who are not adapted to massive amounts of yellow) and fry them with light they can't handle, not because it's "too much" in terms of PUR (a coral can take vastly more correct spectrum light than most people running an aquarium here provide), its simply so much bad light.

From own experience, this is also why running high power white LEDs never will be anything but a disaster for especially acropora keepers, both in terms of growth and colors. If the spectrum profile is bad at 50% intensity, it not getting better the more intensity you have, rather the direct oposite. True, some corals can handle the yellow/red peaks, but most can not. Also, algae (most plants do) love yellow and red, and growing them will give you less nutrients available for coral.

Please correct me if/where I'm wrong. That's would be even better if someone can tell me how I can remove the yellow/orange/red and keep any usable light from the "white" chips (They peak at around 600nm, and are dominant at around 580nm.)

Can I please get an ETA for a decent chip, suited for corals? Pretty please? I'm sure your packing something for "Next generation LEDs, now with the colors we promised you 5 years ago!".
 
Interesting that's why I never understood why people put "full spectrum" when a red and yellow have been proven to grow algae. There is a reason wetlands and seaweed would thrive close to the surface.
 
It's not really the full story, but in brief, yes.

The "full spectrum hoax" has to end and consumers who buy LED for their aquarium will need to know that white chips, while "full spectrum blah blah kelvin" is all but good for a coral. I'd actually recommend running blue 390-510 peaking at 410 and 470ish, and then supplement with some higher nm LEDs to create the effect of "white". A T5 tube, white and bright as it may seem, does not hold anywhere close to the punch of a LED chip, not does it carry anything similar in terms of garbage spectrum. If you add "alot" to the equation "garbage spectrum" you'll get the hang of it.
 
...and fry them with light they can't handle, not because it's "too much" in terms of PUR (a coral can take vastly more correct spectrum light than most people running an aquarium here provide), its simply so much bad light.


I have made this statement and people laugh at me, but I believe it to be true. Under the sun outside or even under 6x250W HQI on my 120G, polyps and SPS will thrive that melt under LED.

Is anybody even trying to make a chip or two suited for aquarium use?
 
When there is low tide on coral reefs in f.instance Thailand, corals will be exposed to air and roughly 2000-2500 PAR 6500 Kelvin 100 CRI light.

Try mimicking that with your 1000w MH..

There is no "photoinhibition" because of "too much". It's just "too crap spectrum", and believe me, I'm a massive LED fan. Currently I'm just running my Blue shades. Although I don't like the overly blue look, my corals do. I will supplement with more variety of blue spectrum LEDs and run white LEDs as a baseline for visual appearance without any form of optics or "punch" to reach a coral.

I can assume that the aquarium industry is not even a decimal in their annual turnover, and for most other appliances, the "Cool White" delivers.
 
Guys, if what you are saying is true, then there can be no success stories. However, we know that is not the case. There are people successfull with LED. My friend jprdriver is one of them. He runs his fixture at 100% to achieve the spectrum that the fixture was designed to provide. Heck he doesn't even use the dimming features, choosing to turn it on and off with a wall timer.

IMO, you should be looking for LED advice from those that have been successfully running them. They are out there. Not the group of LED fanboys that tell you how great LED is and when you see there tank it is nothing that you envy. That's why my signature has that statement!
 
I have made this statement and people laugh at me, but I believe it to be true. Under the sun outside or even under 6x250W HQI on my 120G, polyps and SPS will thrive that melt under LED.

Is anybody even trying to make a chip or two suited for aquarium use?

I've seen the tank! No lie. Led's are the future. Future being the operative word here. And I am personally running them. You just have less wiggle room with params IMHO with the led's.
 
Guys, if what you are saying is true, then there can be no success stories. However, we know that is not the case. There are people successfull with LED. My friend jprdriver is one of them. He runs his fixture at 100% to achieve the spectrum that the fixture was designed to provide. Heck he doesn't even use the dimming features, choosing to turn it on and off with a wall timer.

IMO, you should be looking for LED advice from those that have been successfully running them. They are out there. Not the group of LED fanboys that tell you how great LED is and when you see there tank it is nothing that you envy. That's why my signature has that statement!

Can you tell me which fixture, from what distance, with which optics driven at what mA in a ratio to what other colors? Please also add some spectrum graphs or type of LED chips that does this miracle because I have not found them at Bridgelux, Cree or Philips. I know Osram supposedly have some patent pending, but that's about it.

Please don't keep this a secret :twitch: (And don't tell me your signature covers you without showing the proof your referring to :))
 
Outside of UV, there's no such thing as "bad light" from a coral's perspective. Some wavelengths are more efficient than others at driving photosynthesis, but nothing in the 400-700nm spectrum is inherently harmful to corals. I believe the fried corals that you refer to are simply the result of the highly focused light that leds generate, rather then the spectrum. It's very easy to burn corals under any spectrum of led light. They need the proper amount of PUR, and the rest is just aesthetics. That is where full spectrum comes in. Full spectrum simply adds a few colors beyond the standard blue/white so that we see better color from our corals. You can grow perfectly healthy coral under blue/white, but many people prefer the colors they see under full spectrum setups.
 
I would love to see where you have that information. Do you have a link for it?

As a misinterpretation in the LED lights, UV, for our purpose, is really a actinic 390-430nm lightsource with peaks around 425ish and brings out many nice pigments in corals, as well as growing coraline algae at it's best.

A "white" LED is by no means a balanced quality light source. I could kill corals with a strong laser, and I can kill corals with a lot of unbalanced yellow/red lighting.

Mixing Blue and "White" does make a "20 000 Kelvin" look, but it's not the same as a "20 000 kelvin" radium MH bulb. I can make a sum with many different factors, yet it does not mean it's the same equation. 10=9+1, 10=8+2 etc etc. They are all the same sum, but not the same factors. Can you show me any information that corals can handle wast amounts of unbalanced yellow? Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a high quality "white" LED, but I have yet too see it, and I've built fixtures for a few years already, all from the start with 1:1 blue/white. Only when I reduces the whites to 350-400mA and reduced optics would I get coral and coraline growth in SPS.
 
Can you show me any information that corals can handle wast amounts of unbalanced yellow?

Can you show me any information that they can't? I think the burden of proof is on you in this case since I've never heard anyone else say that yellow light is harmful to corals.

I agree that white leds are not as well balanced across the visible spectrum as fluorescent or MH, but I don't see anything harmful about it. As long as you can achieve an aesthetically pleasing spectrum and provide the proper amount of light, I think leds work fine.
 
Reef lighting is such a niche market. Cree does not care that a couple hundred people want a different spectrum of light. Not much $$ to be made selling even 10,000 LEDs at 3$ each. Commercial hydroponics is where the money is at.
 
Reef lighting is such a niche market. Cree does not care that a couple hundred people want a different spectrum of light. Not much $$ to be made selling even 10,000 LEDs at 3$ each. Commercial hydroponics is where the money is at.

$3 a chip that's not that expensive to make ? Is not that much money any market the market is just as big hydroponics.

I know more ppl with tanks than I know that growing they are not even the best at growing people still have to supplement LEDs with MH.

Your statement has no real proof public aquariums still used MH cuz that the best proven they could Achive for lighting.

If led fixtures where better every one would use them if they actually proved and made effective.
 
$3 a chip that's not that expensive to make ? Is not that much money any market the market is just as big hydroponics.

I know more ppl with tanks than I know that growing they are not even the best at growing people still have to supplement LEDs with MH.

Your statement has no real proof public aquariums still used MH cuz that the best proven they could Achive for lighting.

If led fixtures where better every one would use them if they actually proved and made effective.


The LED manfacturing market is not the amateur hobbiest (reef or horticultural) It's industrial. Not small scale hydroponics. Massive farm projects. You know, where they order millions of dollars of product at once. The other place I see a lot of LEDs? Parking lots. In the last year many gas stations and shopping lots have been converted. This is where LED companies make profit. They might eventually get around to making better products for this specific hobby but its a long way off. I'm sure Cree could make huge advances in reef lighting if motivated. It's just not that profitable.

I think we agree, you just missed my point.
 
My understanding of "white" LEDs is that it is a blue ~450nm emitter with a phosphor coating to down convert to a broader spectrum. We went through this with phosphor on the T8 lamps etc. The difference in stucture of a 4000k T8 and 10000k T8 is the phosphor and price.

I am enjoying hybrid multichip led with two or more colors. Eventually we will have an RGB + blue + UV with individual channels. With more components to mix we can get CRI or color temp or PUR or whatever color works best for you.

Blue is still an expensive color to make as it is not a consumer favorite (the Bluest led carried by a popular company at HD is the ~5000k color)
 
The reef/fish hobby also was a rounding error to metal halide community who sold millions and millions of bulbs for other uses and yet we have hobby specific bulbs that somebody figured out how to make for a profit. Somebody will make diodes for reefs - it is just a matter of time. The market share needs to probably increase, but it would increase if better LEDs were out there - classic chicken and the egg.

Can anybody who doesn't think that LED put out something inappropriate answer why most coral cannot take full power and some cannot even take partial power? ...besides "too much light," which is not even close to the case.
 
I didn't know that led manufacturers were actually running r&d and designing LEDs for maximum coral growth or even the hobbyist in general.

The fixture manufacturers just buy LEDs from the chip manufacturer.

Its been noted above but I don't think they care about your perfect cri led since one order of a led fixture for a commercial building or other building sector will be a lot more profitable to them. Even if they did manufacture this perfect led, would you honestly pay the premium for it? If you would, how many more people would pay it to make it worth it to them.
 
Can you tell me which fixture, from what distance, with which optics driven at what mA in a ratio to what other colors? Please also add some spectrum graphs or type of LED chips that does this miracle because I have not found them at Bridgelux, Cree or Philips. I know Osram supposedly have some patent pending, but that's about it.

Please don't keep this a secret :twitch: (And don't tell me your signature covers you without showing the proof your referring to :))
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2125739
Here you go my friend. Now if you cannot reproduce these results, then you are doing something wrong. I can assure you that he is doing nothing secret here. It's all about the total package. Aqua Illumination, Ecoxotic, Orphek, Maxspect, Vertex, ect have all shown that you can have a successful reef with their lighting. Those who have have failed using LED, it is most likely not the fault of the LED unit but user error. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
 
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Forgive my ignorance here but I am currently struggling with LED lighting and my corals losing color so this topic is very interesting to me.

In a typical LED fixture it is the white LEDs that are causing the problems most of the time? I have been told a million different things regarding LEDs and it is causing a ton of headaches.

Does dimming the white channel help remedy this problem or is it more of a case of exposure time to the white LEDs? Some people have told me that decreasing my lighting schedule so that my whites are only on for 3-4 hours is probably the best fix because corals reach photo saturation quickly under white LEDs.

This stuff is pretty confusing to a newbie like me and it makes it even harder when no one can agree on what is the problem. This thread brings up some interesting points about the white LEDs.
 
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2125739
Here you go my friend. Now if you cannot reproduce these results, then you are doing something wrong. I can assure you that he is doing nothing secret here. It's all about the total package. Aqua Illumination, Ecoxotic, Orphek, Maxspect, Vertex, ect have all shown that you can have a successful reef with their lighting. Those who have have failed using LED, it is most likely not the fault of the LED unit but user error. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Funny thing is, I'm quite willing to put down serious amounts of money on this: That "12000 Kelvin" curve that is pre made doesn't have any of the white LEDs turned particularly much up at all to produce "white". I don't have the actual settings myself, but I would really much like whoever can, to provide the mA of the different channels run under a "12 000 Kelvin" setting on the Radion. That would be very helpfull, although I think I know the answer to it already. Let me make a prediction: the whites, probably at a 1:2 underdog for the others are run at around 350-400mA. Again, this reinforces my point. White LEDs are garbage. RGB+"UV" are not and create the same "White look" on your tank.
 
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