Open letter to the LED industry

[Vannpytt]

Corals on shallow waters are mostly brown, cream(hard corals). They have many symbiotic algae and only two-three species colorfull which can be find in shallow water is Pocillopora sp.(verucosa, damicornis and meandrina)

To build on this statement I will share a picture of my hysterix under alot of "white" LED light. Look at the growth tips and coloration. This is a non manipulated picture. The other corals in the tank was doing poor untill I reduced the "white" substantially (about 65% down to 35%, around 400-450mA on the old 3W Cree Cool White.)

 

[Reef_Breeders]

Please correct me if/where I'm wrong. That's would be even better if someone can tell me how I can remove the yellow/orange/red and keep any usable light from the "white" chips (They peak at around 600nm, and are dominant at around 580nm.)

From an article on advanced aquarist, found here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/10/aafeature2
"As we have seen, most chromoproteins found within corals absorb light energy at ~570-580 nanometers (since they do not preferentially absorb blue and red wavelengths, they reflect it), often giving corals an apparent blue-purple coloration."

Also, keep in mind that chlorophyll a has a major absorption peak at about 660nm. While it is not as big as the peak at about 430nm, it is still there, and simply cannot be ignored.

 

[Reef_Breeders]

Im sorry - I missed question about light diffusion.
In fact - most pros for T5 lights is that they are linear - and corals are getting light from almost all directions.
So - using diffusers(like white plexi or milk lenses) have sense only when you want to prevent agains disco effects..
frost lenses will not change light direction - they will offer wider spread and you will not be able to see color light edges on the sand(they will be mixed together)..
About your next question - because my english isnt to flexible
All light sourced have different polarity. And yes - the highest penetration will have a laser (focused beam of light) - the% of reflected light waves will be the smallest.
Polarization LED light provides increased water permeability than light eg T5 or with candles - this is due to method for producing light for example in fluorescent lamp, led lamp , candlelight - and finally the sun.
Second - of course, light penetration depend from wave energy - more energy/shorter wave = better penetration..
But if you are diver - you know, that corals in their natural habbitat never looks nice - all is green/blue and you can see real corals pigment only if you will take a photo - or you will pickup corals above water level..(to shallow water).
So - if you will ask me - red/warm light is needed by corals? IMHO - not(they need proper energy amount for Chla and Chlb - but its not used by pigments) .Red/warm color is needed for PROPER COLOR reading by human eyes? IMHO - yes.
Thats the reason why birdnets coral(or poccilopora) looks perfect and amazing taken of from tank(on sunlight) when under "normal" led lamp(blue:white) its not pink...
It will not be - because DsRED pigments included in coral tissue CANT reflect red light to human eyes - and coral seems to be brown..(only for human eyes).
Lets look - red car will be ONLY red for human eyes when his paint will reflect RED waves (red pigment reflectr red wave spectrum - all other will be absorbed).
If you will not use red light(using mono light source like LED) or you will use "full spectrum" light(but without red range) - it will never be a red(we will not see that).

Not necessarily- keep in mind certain proteins can fluoresce, or reflect a different color than they absorb. A good example of this would be the accessory protein found in most corals; peridinin, which absorbs light at 475nm, and fluoresces light in the red region, which looks like a "brick red" color to the human eye.

 

[asid61]

I always thought that white was used to cover disco and provide more natural colors- not to help in growth much. 1:2 of neutral white+ royal blue gets 14k, and you can get 85 CRI neutrals without too much trouble.
Warm whites are not used as a primary white because they look a tad more unnatural than neutrals IMO.
You don't use 10k and 14k whites generally because they don't cover 660nm peaks or 430nm peaks, where a lot of photosynthesis takes place.

 

[Reef_Breeders]

I always thought that white was used to cover disco and provide more natural colors- not to help in growth much. 1:2 of neutral white+ royal blue gets 14k, and you can get 85 CRI neutrals without too much trouble.
Warm whites are not used as a primary white because they look a tad more unnatural than neutrals IMO.
You don't use 10k and 14k whites generally because they don't cover 660nm peaks or 430nm peaks, where a lot of photosynthesis takes place.

Keep in mind the majority of the LEDs are for growth, as well as color. The neutral whites have a large peak around 450nm like most cool whites, but unlike the cool whites, they have an equally large shoulder ranging from about 500nm to 700nm. The shoulder primarily effects proteins within the coral tissue, which are responsible for most of the coral colors you see in your tank, and the balance does make the light look more natural. The area from about 510-550nm is not used that much, greens do not seem to hit any peaks for any of the major proteins, so adding green beyond what is contained in the neutral whites is not neccessary. 10K and 14K whites are very low in in the red and amber region, but have a large peak around 450nm. So yes, in theory, they can grow corals pretty well, but a lot of the major absorption peaks of proteins are missed. That is why low CRI, and high kelvin whites are not reccomended by most.

 

[jda]

I am loving this conversation. Thanks.

Is there any impact from UV or infrared that might be missing from LED fixtures? Don't MH have some of this spectrum? Do coral need/use it?

 

[Reef_Breeders]

I am loving this conversation. Thanks.

Is there any impact from UV or infrared that might be missing from LED fixtures? Don't MH have some of this spectrum? Do coral need/use it?

Corals reflect almost all IR radiation, and since you can't see it, it makes no difference in coral coloration. But, they absorb some UV radiation. In some shallow reef corals, they develop a natural sunscreen to protect them from uv light. There is no really conclusive research that I have seen on whether or not it effects growth/color.

 

[jda]

One last question and I will quit. Do the diodes, in mass, give off any harmful radiation that, if unfiltered, can also harm coral. MH is this way without the glass, and that took a while to figure out, so it is not impossible to think that LED could do this too. This has always been my novice, dummy conclusion since I never bought the "too much light" argument... but "too much wrong spectrum" could account for this too.

 

[Reef_Breeders]

One last question and I will quit. Do the diodes, in mass, give off any harmful radiation that, if unfiltered, can also harm coral. MH is this way without the glass, and that took a while to figure out, so it is not impossible to think that LED could do this too. This has always been my novice, dummy conclusion since I never bought the "too much light" argument... but "too much wrong spectrum" could account for this too.

Yes, and no. No, they do not give off UV radiation like a mh bulb does, that is what the glass blocks. Yes, you can turn LEDs up too high, and bleach corals. But if you start low and acclimate them slowly to higher intensity lighting, the radiation will not be harmful.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

To build on this statement I will share a picture of my hysterix under alot of "white" LED light. Look at the growth tips and coloration. This is a non manipulated picture. The other corals in the tank was doing poor untill I reduced the "white" substantially (about 65% down to 35%, around 400-450mA on the old 3W Cree Cool White.)

View attachment 239676

I agree - its normal, because in LED lamps with regular white to blue ratio(1:1) there is a lot of light coming from waves ca. 560nm.
And if you will see - S. hystrix have RedFloProteins with max. absorption near 560nm.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Not necessarily- keep in mind certain proteins can fluoresce, or reflect a different color than they absorb. A good example of this would be the accessory protein found in most corals; peridinin, which absorbs light at 475nm, and fluoresces light in the red region, which looks like a "brick red" color to the human eye.

I agree also - it confirm how much important is using Royal Blue leds together with Blue leds - which have max. peak at 475nm.

The area from about 510-550nm is not used that much, greens do not seem to hit any peaks for any of the major proteins, so adding green beyond what is contained in the neutral whites is not neccessary.
True, but we have to remember, that almost 30% of all discovered pigments need light between 490-520nm - without using some cyan/green leds you are not able to reach that range.
Also some non GFP corals like Pocillopora or Seriatopora need (for proper look) ca. 550-560nm waves - which are emmited perfectly by almost all T5 bulbs(white like AquaBlue and blue Blue Plus).
Thats the reason why that corals look so beatifull under T5 setups - a specially with many Blue tubes and only one/two white(which emites waves in that range - like I showed it on previous page).
The only difference is additional red peak - and for our eyes that bulb will be white.
Because the human eye is imperfect and recognizes only three colors - not like fishes which have tetrachromatic eyes.
No white LEDs brings additional positive effect - no waves in the field of the most visible to the human eye, so the fluorescence of corals is very intensified (because of the high contrast)

 

[Vannpytt]

"As we have seen, most chromoproteins found within corals absorb light energy at ~570-580 nanometers (since they do not preferentially absorb blue and red wavelengths, they reflect it), often giving corals an apparent blue-purple coloration."

Also, keep in mind that chlorophyll a has a major absorption peak at about 660nm. While it is not as big as the peak at about 430nm, it is still there, and simply cannot be ignored.

How much light will they absorb in that range? Could it be quantified comparatively to f. instance 390nm-520nm (with all it's various peaks)? Question is based on the energy of that light wave traveling in water. By default it should be filtered out fairly quick, so I would suspect only a tiny bit of this would actually reach the coral?

What your saying about the 660nm is also visually pleasing, as blending the different peaks, like fund in quality T5 or MH will seem "bright". (Like the Hyperion S, and probably other fixtures I don't know about.

My whole point of this thread at start was that the "white" LEDs don't offer a premium value over anything else that we can put there instead, yet we find them at 1:1 ratio in many industry fixtures and recommendations for DIY. How come this is assumed to be a fact? I'm can also assume that most people with a LED fixture really have no understanding of what we are talking about here, and as such, selling them a fixture is really a hazard game without educating people.

 

[Vannpytt]

Yes, and no. No, they do not give off UV radiation like a mh bulb does, that is what the glass blocks. Yes, you can turn LEDs up too high, and bleach corals. But if you start low and acclimate them slowly to higher intensity lighting, the radiation will not be harmful.

UV is not really UV speaking of the LEDs we utilize. (Yes, there are medical true UV lights, but let's ignore them)

Can you explain why I can start off more or less any coral under 1000mA Cree Blue/Royal Blue/Cyan, yet will fry a coral starting higher than 350-400mA. (Comparatively speaking, if you place those LEDs on the moon, they won't do much for the tank at all, but let's assume 20-30cm from surface in a 55cm deep tank with coral ranging from low to mid high) Could you also elaborate on why we find that much ("white") light the coral doesn't really need by default?

Can you fry corals with "too much 400nm-500nm light"?

(And thank you for taking your time to contribute also)

 

[asid61]

You do want to reduce whites, but they do put out a lot of usable blue and red light. Sure, it's not as much as 470nm blues and 430nm violets, but it's there. Neutral whites can be used to cover 660nm pretty well, where chlorophyll A has a peak.
The use of high-kelvin whites is bad, because there is almost NO red light, and little 430nm light, so all that's left is a little 470nm. Royal blue leds, depending on the make, have some 430nm, plenty of ~450nm (a little photosynthesis there), and a little 470nm. You then add cool blues (470nm) and neutral whites to hit the 470nm and 660nm peaks in chlorophyll A, which corals possess in quantity.
530nm, green, makes some proteins fluoresce, but does almost nothing for growth. Same goes for yellow and orange and amber and 700nm+ "far red". You get all the green you need from neutral white. Cyan (400nm), on the other hand, is useful to corals for color and growth, albeit in less quantity than 470nm, 660nm, and 430nm.

 

[Vannpytt]

Thank you for your insight on the "White" chips. Actually, from now on, I'll just call them yellow without the "". I think they offer little to no value on board a acropora growing LED fixture, not even for aesthetics.

More to my question though, how much of the "yellow peaks" does a coral absorb to stay healthy?

Is it, as I assume, a misconception that acropora will benefit from a 1:1, or even 1:3 ratio yellow:colors, not just in quantity, but corrected for intensity also?

 

[asid61]

They don't use yellow for all practical purposes. White has a bit of yellow in it, and that's all you need.

 

[Vannpytt]

They don't use yellow for all practical purposes. White has a bit of yellow in it, and that's all you need.

Somehow I think we are speaking past each other. :deadhorse:

My point is again, the "white" LEDs are made up of something that would be ~90 CRI yellow light, and the ones that "are not yellow" are low CRI "white" light.

Now, this is not up for discussion, this is real numbers from the manufacturers. What I'm asking is, how much yellow light does a coral need, in terms of "absorb yellow spectrum". In other words, would 1:1 1:2 1:5 1:10 or simply a 1:0 with a pure yellow (the "Warm White" 90 CRI chips) tossed in the mix be sufficient to give enough radiation in that spectrum?

 

[toky916]

So much info I'm head hurts so let's say I have a Kessil 350
There is a blue and white. What your saying the keeping the fixture mostly blue would help color up Sps ? And the white is just very minimal Benefit ?

I'm trying to finish the hour long vid to understand this a bit more I've all ways was interested in the fixtures we buy is just marketing with very minimal evidence.

I have sps that lost color and kinda dull looking .

 

[Drae]

Great in depth thread on LED lighting guys!

 

[Vannpytt]

So much info I'm head hurts so let's say I have a Kessil 350
There is a blue and white. What your saying the keeping the fixture mostly blue would help color up Sps ? And the white is just very minimal Benefit ?

I'm trying to finish the hour long vid to understand this a bit more I've all ways was interested in the fixtures we buy is just marketing with very minimal evidence.

I have sps that lost color and kinda dull looking .

They will also grow with blue lights alone, but I would recommend intensity in a wide blue spectrum, ranging from violet(~390nm) to cyan(495nm), and 1/3-1/4th in "white".

Now, don't get me wrong, more or less every single fixture on the market today can do this if you understand what your corals need. Problem is, in general most people don't, hence you get "LEDs don't work, they are only good for a laser show pew pew" mentality.

LEDs do work, there are flaws (like diffusion/spread), but there are workarounds. If the industry would provide a proper "white" LED with the same spectrum as a T5 "white" or, like Pacific Sun showed earlier in the thread, make a RGB+UV solution (hope they provide proper instructions so people will learn to value these fixtures, because I honestly believe the regular user will think "nah, not bright enough" and return/give up using them.) then you will start to see the best tanks with LED only, since LED, in most other ways are superior to T5 or MH.

And please, don't say we can "photoadapt" by "starting low and ramping up". You would have to do this for all new corals. Settle for a low "white" high blue setting, where you can "live with that amount of blue look" and your tank will thrive under LEDs, because unless you have red's and green your tank will look very blue.