Open letter to the LED industry

[Pacific Sun RD]

It's not really the full story, but in brief, yes.

The "full spectrum hoax" has to end and consumers who buy LED for their aquarium will need to know that white chips, while "full spectrum blah blah kelvin" is all but good for a coral. I'd actually recommend running blue 390-510 peaking at 410 and 470ish, and then supplement with some higher nm LEDs to create the effect of "white". A T5 tube, white and bright as it may seem, does not hold anywhere close to the punch of a LED chip, not does it carry anything similar in terms of garbage spectrum. If you add "alot" to the equation "garbage spectrum" you'll get the hang of it.

You have right. You can produce "white looking" light without white LED chips and it's actually done.
Light spectrum emitted from that kind of LED panel looks like:

As you can see on that chart, almost all important areas(for pigments light absorption) are active(light waves are emitted) - up to 530nm and above 580nm.
If you will compare it to pigments excitation/emissions chart it will be completly clear what kind of light/spectrum is needed for strong corals color and healthy growth.

Additional peak between 630-640nm is only for increase CRI ratio for human eyes - and show real colors of some species which dont use GFP proteins - but have proteins like DsRed..(which reflect some range of incoming light)..

 

[Vannpytt]

Thank you very much for your contribution. Would you like to comment on the current state of "White" LEDs, and why they are commonly used in most fixtures on the market? Do they have any real use over an aquarium, and does the "percieved brightness" often (mis)understood as intensity (however, following my own experience is not Photosynthetically Usable Radiation; and PAR when speaking of LEDs is a useless term) have more benefits than disadvantages? From what I gather among various sources, both hobbyist and semi professional (which both seem to contribute to the future of Aquarium LED), the peak and general spectrum on the 2500-8000 Kelvin chips are very yellow, and I would suspect that the same thing goes for what some refer to as "14 000 Kelvin white LEDs", which again, I have not heard of from the serious LED manufacturers.

I'm not going to ask you to share your secret R&D stuff, but here is a wishlist:

• High CRI/RGB White Chips
• Light diffusion options - Most use optics, a normal tank should use diffusion
• Colorfilters to remove "impure light"

Now, I understand that diffusion takes away intensity, but an idea I had last summer actually, was to create a thin frosted acryllic shield with a slight purple tint on it and have it in front of all my "Warm-Natural-Cool White" chips. Does this sound like an option at all? I think with current light fixtures, the intensity on the chips are not whats holding us back, and the only reason I can come up with for LED to kill corals is wrong spectrum and uneven coverage.

Sounds correct?

 

[Vannpytt]

And btw, that Hyperion S seems very very sexy. It's actually the same I was planning for a DIY, like I said, running everything but white at a correct balance is probably the best way by far currently, and for a normal hobbyist, this is what they should look for, a plug and play unit without waste of light in unwanted, unneeded and non useful spectrum.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@Vannpytt
I can answer to all your questions directly, because some of them are our R&D team secret ;-) but based on 6 years in LED industry(reef tank, sps corals propagation under first gen LED tubes) we collect several experiences - a specially with using different ligth sources above the same aquariums(one water in all tanks) with different light setups.
But first - we should ask - why corals directly under water(shallow waters - up to 1.5m) have brown/cream and not nice corals - in situation when there is much more light than on 10-15m?
In shallow water light spectrum is wider - its "full spectrum" light, isnt true? If yes - why they arent so colorfull like on 15m? The answer is - PROPER spectrum..
Thare are two important keys:
1) proper light amount for healthy growth
2) proper light spectrum for pigments activation - they need to get exact waves(excitation) to emit another wave(emission).
We know, that light wave energy respond to wave lenght.
More energy - shorter waves(more blue). Less energy - longer waves - spectrum goes to red.
How it works?
Coral under proper light spectrum "take" some energy from waves(by using their GFP).
light waves with decreased energy amount - are longer - so coral emits waves in another color than consumed.
Now it should be clear why all green fluoroscent corals look amazing under blue LEDs.
Their spectrum is very narrow (about 450nm - for RB) and when light with that spectrum "hit" coral - he "take" some energy from wave - and emit shorter(less energy).
As you can see on light spectrum - on the right side of blue is green :

so it will emit green fluorescent light...
If you will think for a while - you will understand how its simple - and what we NEED to get proper, strong pigments...

So - answer for you is:
The main problem for all first introduced LED lamps was that manufacturers produced them for "nice looking for human eyes" but not fitted to requirements of corals. On start all corals respond very nice - but after few weeks/months they loose their pigments...
Next "myth" in aquarium industry is that corals(SPS) need PAR not less than 400umol/m2/s..
Its not true - there is a tons of reports/docs where you can find a proof that corals will growth with almost the best results for PAR between 250-400 umol/m2/s - above it too strong light block certain biological processes (or effectively impedes them - such as a soft tissue wound in too strong light).
Of course, using LED panels without white leds can increase disco effect (bad looking in reef tanks) - but using high density matrix(like our SMT - square matrix) prevents this.

Light generated by that kind of panel is perfectly mixed - and you are not able to say that there was used/or not white leds.. (photo of 75W SMT LED panels)

 

[Vannpytt]

Thank you for making so much sense.

I see you didn't comment on light diffusion and filter color tints which is fair if it's part of your current research. However, a scientific question you probably could answer, as I'm not even a novice at best when it comes to quantum mechanics and radiation.

How does light, particularly 400nm-510nm + 560nm-660nm behave on surfaces? Reason I'm asking is simply because in LED tanks you will see amazing colors (those tanks that run little white intensity) on top where they are hit with direct light, but so strong contrast to where there is no light hitting directly. LED, as the sun, is a hard light source. MH is also, and T5 is soft.

Again, I'm suspecting that different energy waves will reflect differently on surfaces. Is this correct?

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Im sorry - I missed question about light diffusion.
In fact - most pros for T5 lights is that they are linear - and corals are getting light from almost all directions.
So - using diffusers(like white plexi or milk lenses) have sense only when you want to prevent agains disco effects..
frost lenses will not change light direction - they will offer wider spread and you will not be able to see color light edges on the sand(they will be mixed together)..
About your next question - because my english isnt to flexible
All light sourced have different polarity. And yes - the highest penetration will have a laser (focused beam of light) - the% of reflected light waves will be the smallest.
Polarization LED light provides increased water permeability than light eg T5 or with candles - this is due to method for producing light for example in fluorescent lamp, led lamp , candlelight - and finally the sun.
Second - of course, light penetration depend from wave energy - more energy/shorter wave = better penetration..
But if you are diver - you know, that corals in their natural habbitat never looks nice - all is green/blue and you can see real corals pigment only if you will take a photo - or you will pickup corals above water level..(to shallow water).
So - if you will ask me - red/warm light is needed by corals? IMHO - not(they need proper energy amount for Chla and Chlb - but its not used by pigments) .Red/warm color is needed for PROPER COLOR reading by human eyes? IMHO - yes.
Thats the reason why birdnets coral(or poccilopora) looks perfect and amazing taken of from tank(on sunlight) when under "normal" led lamp(blue:white) its not pink...
It will not be - because DsRED pigments included in coral tissue CANT reflect red light to human eyes - and coral seems to be brown..(only for human eyes).
Lets look - red car will be ONLY red for human eyes when his paint will reflect RED waves (red pigment reflectr red wave spectrum - all other will be absorbed).
If you will not use red light(using mono light source like LED) or you will use "full spectrum" light(but without red range) - it will never be a red(we will not see that).

 

[penfold2]

How does light, particularly 400nm-510nm + 560nm-660nm behave on surfaces? Reason I'm asking is simply because in LED tanks you will see amazing colors (those tanks that run little white intensity) on top where they are hit with direct light, but so strong contrast to where there is no light hitting directly. LED, as the sun, is a hard light source. MH is also, and T5 is soft.

I think this is one of the biggest problems with led lighting. It's truly a point light source. MH is typically considered a point light source as well, but when you put a 2 foot reflector behind it you get quite a wide spread. Leds direct all their light downwards, so they have no need for a reflector which would spread the light source over a much larger area. Add to this the fact that leds are often clustered tightly together to avoid the disco effect, and you can get some very harsh shadows. I think led fixtures need to be carefully designed to cover the majority of the tank surface while also clustering different colors together in order to achieve good coverage and blending. My DIY fixture just has two clusters, and shadows are much stronger than I would like.

As for white leds, they're not ideal, but they do cover a wide portion of the spectrum with a single led. You can balance out their deficiencies with other colors, but it would be much more difficult to create a full spectrum without using whites of any kind. I would like to see better whites as well, but the current ones still offer a big advantage over individual colors.

 

[Vannpytt]

Im sorry - I missed question about light diffusion.
In fact - most pros for T5 lights is that they are linear - and corals are getting light from almost all directions.
So - using diffusers(like white plexi or milk lenses) have sense only when you want to prevent agains disco effects..
frost lenses will not change light direction - they will offer wider spread and you will not be able to see color light edges on the sand(they will be mixed together)..
About your next question - because my english isnt to flexible
All light sourced have different polarity. And yes - the highest penetration will have a laser (focused beam of light) - the% of reflected light waves will be the smallest.
Polarization LED light provides increased water permeability than light eg T5 or with candles - this is due to method for producing light for example in fluorescent lamp, led lamp , candlelight - and finally the sun.
Second - of course, light penetration depend from wave energy - more energy/shorter wave = better penetration..
But if you are diver - you know, that corals in their natural habbitat never looks nice - all is green/blue and you can see real corals pigment only if you will take a photo - or you will pickup corals above water level..(to shallow water).
So - if you will ask me - red/warm light is needed by corals? IMHO - not(they need proper energy amount for Chla and Chlb - but its not used by pigments) .Red/warm color is needed for PROPER COLOR reading by human eyes? IMHO - yes.
Thats the reason why birdnets coral(or poccilopora) looks perfect and amazing taken of from tank(on sunlight) when under "normal" led lamp(blue:white) its not pink...
It will not be - because DsRED pigments included in coral tissue CANT reflect red light to human eyes - and coral seems to be brown..(only for human eyes).
Lets look - red car will be ONLY red for human eyes when his paint will reflect RED waves (red pigment reflectr red wave spectrum - all other will be absorbed).
If you will not use red light(using mono light source like LED) or you will use "full spectrum" light(but without red range) - it will never be a red(we will not see that).

So, is there any solution being worked on to create the same effect T5s have as a ominous light? Reflection and diffusion was my first thought about a year ago. I don't understand the concept that 2 light sources have different reflective properties, as I recon light is a directional beam, be it from a T5 or a LED?

As for white leds, they're not ideal, but they do cover a wide portion of the spectrum with a single led. You can balance out their deficiencies with other colors, but it would be much more difficult to create a full spectrum without using whites of any kind. I would like to see better whites as well, but the current ones still offer a big advantage over individual colors.

If you want to grow corals, they don't. They are more a waste of space and electricity not counting the ill effect on corals.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

@penfold
Corals dont need full spectrum for nice and strong pigmentation(all aquarists/sps keepers want to get amazing colors, isnt true?)
All most beautiful corals live much deeper than shallow waters - and they dont have full spectrum light for their use(and they can produce strong pigments).
In my view, the problem is that we want to get two little contradictory results - nicely colored corals that will be kept in view that allows the observation of these colors (as in shallow waters).

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

So, is there any solution being worked on to create the same effect T5s have as a ominous light? Reflection and diffusion was my first thought about a year ago. I don't understand the concept that 2 light sources have different reflective properties, as I recon light is a directional beam, be it from a T5 or a LED?

Good idea is using led lamps with not focused light(close to water) - so corals arent kept under light beam and reflected from top only.. Using multipanel fixtures without optics(115 degree default lenses) produce very interesting visual effect - corals are lighted from few panels in the same time - they dont have to collect energy only from top - so they may eject some symbiotic algae...
About reflection - it depend from light polaristation and wave energy.

 

[Vannpytt]

I really want to thank you for taking your time and discussing this topic, and again, your lamps look very interesting for sure. Packing LEDs closely together, without optics or white LEDs is the way I would go, without a doubt.

Edit: And obviously I stand corrected, not all sponsors are equally bad, but all white chips are.

 

[Shaker nemo]

Wow this was very helpful love u guys. I need help in something http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21734704#post21734704
Thx

 

[penfold2]

If you want to grow corals, they don't. They are more a waste of space and electricity not counting the ill effect on corals.

Corals grow perfectly well under white leds and there is no evidence that they are harmed by it. I know of no theory that would explain this either. Sunlight contains the same wavelengths as white leds, and corals do just fine under that. Practically all commercial and diy fixtures contain white leds. I don't know what would lead you to believe that they are harmful.

@penfold
Corals dont need full spectrum for nice and strong pigmentation(all aquarists/sps keepers want to get amazing colors, isnt true?)
All most beautiful corals live much deeper than shallow waters - and they dont have full spectrum light for their use(and they can produce strong pigments).
In my view, the problem is that we want to get two little contradictory results - nicely colored corals that will be kept in view that allows the observation of these colors (as in shallow waters).

Deep water corals are capable of producing beautiful colors, but I think most people will agree that they don't look very beautiful in deep water. Most people try to strike a balance between highlighting specific pigments, and providing a full spectrum to accurately view colors across the entire visible spectrum. White leds go a long way in helping to achieve this.

 

[Vannpytt]

Corals grow perfectly well under white leds and there is no evidence that they are harmed by it. I know of no theory that would explain this either. Sunlight contains the same wavelengths as white leds, and corals do just fine under that. Practically all commercial and diy fixtures contain white leds. I don't know what would lead you to believe that they are harmful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmg3uCCX08k

I'll provide more info about this. Sure you can "view" your corals better under white light, but it's not what they need, nor what the want, and they look unnatural and brown/dull if lighted with it. If lighted with too much they will become unhealthy and die. I've seen this, and heard the same story from most aquarists using LED. To best mimic a high quality MH or T5 setup, RGB (Like the Hyperion) is the way to go. (Best of both worlds in a balanced manner)

 

[penfold2]

Sure you can "view" your corals better under white light, but it's not what they need, nor what the want, and they look unnatural and brown/dull if lighted with it.

White light is the most natural light there is, as it's what the sun provides. Corals have adapted to thrive in it. It does tend to wash out the fluorescent pigments, but many pinks and yellows look great under white light, and the overall color balance is much more natural and pleasing to many people. This is why most led fixtures try to create a balance between white light, and specific desirable wavelengths.

If lighted with too much they will become unhealthy and die. I've seen this, and heard the same story from most aquarists using LED.

There's simply no science behind this statement, and too much contradictory evidence to lend it any credence.

To best mimic a high quality MH or T5 setup, RGB (Like the Hyperion) is the way to go. (Best of both worlds in a balanced manner)

MH and T5 are full spectrum light sources. They're not lacking any of the wavelengths that are present in white leds. When you combine white leds with blue, violet, and possibly a few other colors, you get a spectrum much like that of MH or T5.

I'm not saying that we should grow coral solely under white leds, just that they make a good base to be supplemented with other colors. I'm not sure why anyone would want to completely eliminate any wavelengths from a light source.

 

[Vannpytt]

White light is the most natural light there is, as it's what the sun provides. Corals have adapted to thrive in it. It does tend to wash out the fluorescent pigments, but many pinks and yellows look great under white light, and the overall color balance is much more natural and pleasing to many people. This is why most led fixtures try to create a balance between white light, and specific desirable wavelengths.

"White light" as natural is a 100 CRI 5-6500 Kelvin source. Not a 75 CRI yellow chip. Honestly, corals with pigments are pleasing to look at. Corals who lack is not. The industry takes car headlights and put them over our tanks. That's not balance, that's simply marketing gimmick to sell more fixtures.

There's simply no science behind this statement, and too much contradictory evidence to lend it any credence.

I will agree, there is no science behind this, merely observations that fits with the pattern and general research in marine biology and light industry. Show me a tank that runs 1mA, or even 700mA 1:1 White:Blue that has healthy corals. Point of this is, Yeah, I can set up 12 white LEDs at 400mA and 12 blue LEDs at 1000mA, label it "Superduper Blue Coral growers 18 000 Kelvin Reef light best option" and sell them. The consumer run them at 100%, but it's still alot of waste, if you could add some actinics, some green and some red, get a better spectrum curve and the same pleasing light to the eye. Coral and you win.

MH and T5 are full spectrum light sources. They're not lacking any of the wavelengths that are present in white leds. When you combine white leds with blue, violet, and possibly a few other colors, you get a spectrum much like that of MH or T5.

No. This is simply just wrong and you know it.

I'm not saying that we should grow coral solely under white leds, just that they make a good base to be supplemented with other colors. I'm not sure why anyone would want to completely eliminate any wavelengths from a light source.

You would not be able to. There are other options, far better suited for creating a LED fixture, since current white LEDs lack in preformance (PUR). Come to think of it, I actually made this thread in that regard, not to deal with trolling trolls.

 

[gcarroll]

Funny thing is, I'm quite willing to put down serious amounts of money on this: That "12000 Kelvin" curve that is pre made doesn't have any of the white LEDs turned particularly much up at all to produce "white". I don't have the actual settings myself, but I would really much like whoever can, to provide the mA of the different channels run under a "12 000 Kelvin" setting on the Radion. That would be very helpfull, although I think I know the answer to it already. Let me make a prediction: the whites, probably at a 1:2 underdog for the others are run at around 350-400mA. Again, this reinforces my point. White LEDs are garbage. RGB+"UV" are not and create the same "White look" on your tank.

Where does it say in the rules that reef light manufacturers have to use white diodes only. You want to take away the biggest advantage that LED lighting has (the mixture of different colors to achieve a desired spectrum), snd call it junk?

You posts just wasted 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back!

 

[wildman926]

You posts just wasted 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back!

:ape:

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

MH and T5 are full spectrum light sources. They're not lacking any of the wavelengths that are present in white leds. When you combine white leds with blue, violet, and possibly a few other colors, you get a spectrum much like that of MH or T5.
.

I'm sorry, but I think that you are wrong(a little
T5 bulbs arent full spectrum light sources. For example - most populat tubes(in EU) combo:
a) ATI AquaBlue/AM ReefWhite 15KK(this is the same bulb)
b) ATI Blue Plus/AM ReefBlue
Please take a look for that spectrums - AquaBlue:

As you can see - there is many areas without full covering.
Comparing three popular T5 tubes(white)

and light spectrum for Blue bulbs(actinic)

and together with AM ReefBlue:

so - its very easy to see, that white bulbs have similar light output(spectrum) like blue one - but have additional peak near 620nm...
If we can speak that T5 bulbs are full spectrum light sources - please compare it to spectrum produced by LED panel WITHOUT white leds.. It should be also called "full spectrum" ;-)
Have very similar spectrum coverage.

Finally, IMHO we can say that full spectrum light is sun:

The difference between full spectrum sun and combo of T5 bulbs(which have wider spectrum than metal halide - build from many peaks) is huge..
If that full spectrum would be responsible for strong corals pigmentation and growth - most beautiful corals should growth directly under water surface - up to 1-1.5m - but they arent.
Corals on shallow waters are mostly brown, cream(hard corals). They have many symbiotic algae and only two-three species colorfull which can be find in shallow water is Pocillopora sp.(verucosa, damicornis and meandrina) and
We did several measurments in Bali two years ago(on different deep - spectrum and PAR readings) and few Bali farms - when corals was placed in shallow water - growth was very fast(but colors - washed), for pigment activation(stronger colours before shipments) - they was putted to deeper stands - up to 5-10m(the same species).
Growth was slow, but color was very, very nice..
You have to agree, that on 10m deep there is less light than under surface - and some of wave are missing.
The same corals taken from 10m to "better" light condition (shallow water with "full spectrum" light) go to brown/bleach and loose pigments.
Similar we can see in our tanks - when we will not acclimatize corals to new, strong light.
Finally - Im glad to see interesting topic when we can discuss about our experiences with light over aquariums..

PS. I'm sorry for my english

 

[Vannpytt]

Where does it say in the rules that reef light manufacturers have to use white diodes only. You want to take away the biggest advantage that LED lighting has (the mixture of different colors to achieve a desired spectrum), snd call it junk?

You posts just wasted 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back!

First of all, this thread is to optimize LED for aquarium use, not for parking lots or whatever else. Trolling won't get you anywhere. No one said they have to use white diodes at all, matter of fact, I'm advocating the use of everything but the current garbage "white" LEDs, and yes, they are garbage ("junk") for growing corals. Again, they do a swell job in head and taillights in automobiles. Not much coral growing in front of a car though.

Let's just stay on topic here. If you feel it's wasted 15 minutes (if it was me, I would just skip reading and do something else) then don't bother wasting more of your time posting again.

He runs his fixture at 100% to achieve the spectrum that the fixture was designed to provide. Heck he doesn't even use the dimming features, choosing to turn it on and off with a wall timer.

This is incorrect at best. It stands to reason, that the setting he's running is doing exactly what I was opening this thread with, utilizing as little of the white LEDs as possible to get enough PUR. Why not make the fixture without the XT-E LEDs and put in more blue/violet/red?

1. No he does not run his "fixture" at 100% - He might run his setting at it.
2. That's a pretty broad generalization, it's built to create any spectrum in the visible range. He's using someone else setting, which again, I have not seen any proof that there is alot of white LED channel active, and regardless of this, the XT-E are yellow and have dominant color around 580nm.
3. Yes he does, he even states this himself.