YoungREEFA
New member
I dont know if this helps with any ones position but it could help if you disnt know about light blending.
Credits go to someone who posted it in the d120 thread
Credits go to someone who posted it in the d120 thread
Open letter to the LED industry
- Thread starter Vannpytt
- Start date
YoungREEFA
New member
Allmost
New member
LEDs came around, as a way of saving up on electricity, and being more green.
they have now exceeded T5 and most MH set ups in terms of Wattage, and do not have yet the same coverage. so what is the point of switching now ?
Note : with that much LED power, you are going to heat up water just like T5.
LEDs burn out before the 10 year, so take into account the cost of buying new fixture every 10 years Minimum. I rather change bulbs yearly than to change fixture every couple of years.
LED makers have lost what they wanted to do initially ... anything they make is selling, so we are allowing them to just make stuff and sell us at higher prices than normal.
they have now exceeded T5 and most MH set ups in terms of Wattage, and do not have yet the same coverage. so what is the point of switching now ?
Note : with that much LED power, you are going to heat up water just like T5.
LEDs burn out before the 10 year, so take into account the cost of buying new fixture every 10 years Minimum. I rather change bulbs yearly than to change fixture every couple of years.
LED makers have lost what they wanted to do initially ... anything they make is selling, so we are allowing them to just make stuff and sell us at higher prices than normal.
LEDs will be superior, both in terms of efficiency for every watt and for growing corals once people stop arguing on behalf of the industry and demand efficiency and proven technology. Just because they put down their bucks on a product and made an informed decision doesn't make it good. It's just the ego in it it seems. Really, there is no question what so ever that a T5 setup will spread light endlessly much better than any current LED fixture. This will be corrected in a few generations of LED fixtures, but not yet. It's the selling point in a few years time. Mark my words.
Really, instead of wasting dollars on "new standard in lightning" that has not been tested properly, and is made with too many options and too few limitations, demand proof before you go out there and spend $1000+ on a reef setup.
I'm not writing this thread to ruin your LED fixtures, I'm here to help us all get better technology for our corals. It seems some of you take it quite personal and "attack it". That's rather pointless.
penfold2
Member
This thread is not about debating the merits of led lighting vs T5 or MH. That topic has been covered endlessly in other threads and I think we have all had a chance to form our opinions on the matter.
There's nothing personal here. I don't think my led fixture or any other is perfect. I think there's plenty of room for improvement in the future. But you're making extravagant claims with nothing to back it up. You're calling the current designs garbage in spite of the success that many people are having. People are going to question that.
Allmost
New member
I think my point is very relevant to those who got it.
its the current LED design that sucks, and we are allowing it to happen, by buying every product they make
if we dont, then they are forced to do more research on it.
I used to work alot with LEDs. in university and a bit after that ... as mentioned here, the white LED usage is just .... there is no white LED ! the white we buy is blue with yellow mask ! instead, the old RGB system would work alot better to make white light. there is also no need to have hundreds of 3W LEDs. look at a car's lighting system. ... they use reflectors to expand the coverage ... look at the new LEDs being designed for office use ... they all Use RGB with reflectors now to make light ...
anyways ... Im just ranting, cause I expect more from LED makers out there.
its the current LED design that sucks, and we are allowing it to happen, by buying every product they make
if we dont, then they are forced to do more research on it.I used to work alot with LEDs. in university and a bit after that ... as mentioned here, the white LED usage is just .... there is no white LED ! the white we buy is blue with yellow mask ! instead, the old RGB system would work alot better to make white light. there is also no need to have hundreds of 3W LEDs. look at a car's lighting system. ... they use reflectors to expand the coverage ... look at the new LEDs being designed for office use ... they all Use RGB with reflectors now to make light ...
anyways ... Im just ranting, cause I expect more from LED makers out there.
Really, you failed to see all the graphs and information Pacific Sun RD added? You fail to see that most of the industry is moving away from the yellow diodes? You think it's "ok, to buy a few more fixtures before they are proper"? Take a look in the thread where people jump ship from LEDs. Until you add value to the thread I won't argue for the sake of argument.
penfold2
Member
My point is not that white leds are a perfect solution that is here to stay. I don't know if they will or not. My point is that your demonization of current led configurations and their creators is unfounded. The idea that manufacturers are purposely adding unnecessary white leds in order to leave room for improvement is ridiculous. They're doing it because it works. And people are buying them because they work. Sure you can post a thread about people ditching leds, just as I can post one about people having great success with them.
Maybe RGB based designs are the future, maybe not. But many people are already finding current led designs to be vastly superior to MH and T5. I'm sure there will be future improvements, and I look forward to seeing them, but this RGB talk is still just speculation at this point.
Maybe RGB based designs are the future, maybe not. But many people are already finding current led designs to be vastly superior to MH and T5. I'm sure there will be future improvements, and I look forward to seeing them, but this RGB talk is still just speculation at this point.
[URL="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21464808&postcount=2"]First post from your thread.
"*all images compressed from RAW metadata not modifications under 75% Blue and 50% 6.5K White "
In my world, that's about 50% wasted "real estate on the fixture."
I rest my case.
Allmost
New member
honestly, since I have been in this market, I know they are making it, to experiment, and ppl are buying it, thinking they have passed their test. We are their test labs ... sadly.
but at the end, it will all work, even flashlights over a reef tank would work eventually if you keep changing it around, but its just not there yet.
Success is in the eye of the beholder. For my eye, there are no successes yet. I have seen probably 30 tanks nationwide (with my own eyes) that I would trade mine for and none of them use the line of current LED lights, but all would like to use them when/if they get right. The LED tanks that I have seen with my own eyes are OK at best (to me, others will disagree) and most of the hobbyists lack the depth and breath of knowledge to make any kind of success determination that anybody would want to rely on. There are many, many people who have have LEDs that will tell you they are no substitute for MH or T5 - some are using them anyway and some are going back. One of the big issues with me is that the people who have the breath and depth of knowledge to contribute do not anymore - they don't need much and don't like getting into argument with the bandwagoners and frontrunners from the "biocube generation" whose successes and knowledge has been obtained from message boards, the internet and maybe a year in the hobby with a toy-sized tank and not from much actual experience over time. I am thoroughly enjoying this thread because, other than a few posts, I feel that this topic is being visited by those with some breath and depth to actually offer some insight to try and move forward. I hope that they don't get scared away.
I'm not sure what I find worse; -the industry knowing its bad or if they don't know. I recon morally, the first. I have to laugh a little, sad as it is, about your remark, because the chips are actually flashlight components
Mattewell
Member
I would be very curious to know what a graph of the spectrum of light looks like at 30 feet of water in an actual reef. Maybe also at 60 feet.
Wouldnt light manufactures be interested in trying to output the exact spectrum that corals are used to in the wild?
Creating a spectrum graph of a real world enviroment would be worthwhile to me.
Wouldnt light manufactures be interested in trying to output the exact spectrum that corals are used to in the wild?
Creating a spectrum graph of a real world enviroment would be worthwhile to me.
penfold2
Member
Here's a chart showing sunlight spectra at the ocean surface, 5m depth, and 15m depth.
I don't think manufacturers would be interested in mimicking deep water spectra, as colors tends to disappear with depth and everything becomes a shade of blue. We get much better aesthetic results by tailoring the spectrum towards the various pigments that give coral its bright colors.
dr.dator
New member
First off, awesome thread!
RGB LEDs are the future according to some... Wouldn't that just be three "spikes" in the spectrum and even though we humans perceive it as "full range white" or whatever, it wouldn't be so good for the corals as it doesn't match the sun's spectrum very much at all?
RGB LEDs are the future according to some... Wouldn't that just be three "spikes" in the spectrum and even though we humans perceive it as "full range white" or whatever, it wouldn't be so good for the corals as it doesn't match the sun's spectrum very much at all?
Again, this has been covered. I'm starting to wonder if you make me repeat what's been covered before intentionally just to make this thread loose value or if you don't understand this. No offense, but if you don't understand what we are talking about, please ask, but don't correct facts with whatever seems to suit your brand/fixture. It's not going to change the numbers in any way.
Allmost
New member
we can use creative ways of blending them in.
but White LED just does not exist. its either RGB in one chip, or its a blue LED, with yellow mask, to give it a whitish look [cool white is what they call it]
we shouldn't be worried about sun so much ... we can never duplicate it, and T5 and MH spectrum is no where close to that of the sun ... sun is a black body which emits white light. nothing else we can make would duplicate that. MH and T5 are same Idea as LED, electrons jumping between different bands and emiting their energy in form of light [photon] which will have set wavelength....
matching the light at 30 m dept also does not good as mentioned above. guess we should start matching T5's spectrum
First, no, but it would mean more nuances (more different LED colors) at specific ranges. Far from unachievable.
I would assume, a reef white LED (6-8000 Kelvin 90+ CRI LED would be what we are looking for.) RGB+UV is also a very real possibility, shown by Pacific Sun RD earlier in this thread with the Hyperion S fixture (and so many other brands who still has not given up on the large amount of yellow LEDs.
What people are assuming is that 520nm - 650nm just magically vanish if you mix it with enough blue, but that's not the case at all. It just changes the visual appearance for us, not for corals and wavelengths. I would call this masking, not blending or removing. The only way to remove a lot of unwanted spectrum from "white" LEDs as of now, is to run them at less intensity/current. I've found 350-450mA to be a good range for 12x 3w LEDs on a string.
jscarlata
New member
I'm pretty far from an sps expert, and pretty far from a reef expert, but I've made the switch from t5 to led, and I have observations that may be relevant...for a stony coral, the light you give it is it's primary source of food, right? So if you compare to fish for example, what would happen to your saltwater fish if you suddenly switched their food to something they've never eaten before and that was the only food you have them? In many cases, they would stop eating for a while, their behavior would change and some might even die from the shock...over time however they would most likely start to eat slowly as they adapted to this new food, they would do better if you gave them bits of their old food along w their new food. eventually the fish that survived the change would probably thrive, assuming the new food met their nutritional needs.
Looking at corals, if you have an sps tank that's been thriving under mh or t5 light for years, and you suddenly switch to led your going to shock the corals, they will slow down and stop growing as they adapt to this new food. Some will lose color, some will change color, some will color up again but it takes time. In my tank I've seen exactly this. After the switch to led My coral all stopped growing, calcium and alk uptake nearly stopped completely and many changed or lost color. None of my long standing pieces died. As I increased the intensity and fed aminos, they adapted and a few changed color, now most are gaining color intensity albeit slowly. I had one species that was a blue/green turn bright green, then it's new growth which uaed to be white became purple. Another coral that was dark brown/red is turning pink. A bright blue coral is now turning dark blue. I've also seen calcium and alk uptake start to increase slowly. It's taken time, months, but I'm starting to see positive results. I'm using the pacific sun triton S over a 90. My gigantea also went thru changes. Under t5 for about a year it's green tentacles and brown body was showing signs of having Multiple colors, there were pink orange and red slightly visible in the tips. The multicolor ing went away and it's now green and brown again, but it also went thru a period where it shrank, now it's much bigger and more open and the tentacles are nice and thin. I think, and this is purely opinion, that the failures that some experienced switching to led happened due to lack of patience, animals in shock, too little light during an acclimation cycle, and too much light by going too fast. Light=food for a coral, change that food and some coral will adapt well, other more sensitive animals might not adapt well and die. My tank is back on track and corals are growing again, intensity is around 86%, I go up a
Little every other week. Alk and cal are increasing in uptake as well. I for one think pacific sun are onto something with these new fixtures having no white led, in looking at the tank you would never ever know there was no white LEDs present...
Looking at corals, if you have an sps tank that's been thriving under mh or t5 light for years, and you suddenly switch to led your going to shock the corals, they will slow down and stop growing as they adapt to this new food. Some will lose color, some will change color, some will color up again but it takes time. In my tank I've seen exactly this. After the switch to led My coral all stopped growing, calcium and alk uptake nearly stopped completely and many changed or lost color. None of my long standing pieces died. As I increased the intensity and fed aminos, they adapted and a few changed color, now most are gaining color intensity albeit slowly. I had one species that was a blue/green turn bright green, then it's new growth which uaed to be white became purple. Another coral that was dark brown/red is turning pink. A bright blue coral is now turning dark blue. I've also seen calcium and alk uptake start to increase slowly. It's taken time, months, but I'm starting to see positive results. I'm using the pacific sun triton S over a 90. My gigantea also went thru changes. Under t5 for about a year it's green tentacles and brown body was showing signs of having Multiple colors, there were pink orange and red slightly visible in the tips. The multicolor ing went away and it's now green and brown again, but it also went thru a period where it shrank, now it's much bigger and more open and the tentacles are nice and thin. I think, and this is purely opinion, that the failures that some experienced switching to led happened due to lack of patience, animals in shock, too little light during an acclimation cycle, and too much light by going too fast. Light=food for a coral, change that food and some coral will adapt well, other more sensitive animals might not adapt well and die. My tank is back on track and corals are growing again, intensity is around 86%, I go up a
Little every other week. Alk and cal are increasing in uptake as well. I for one think pacific sun are onto something with these new fixtures having no white led, in looking at the tank you would never ever know there was no white LEDs present...
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