Combination is better, but adds to the price. There are fixtures like that already, which is also common for MH (MH + T5 combos).
Open letter to the LED industry
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Combination is better, but adds to the price. There are fixtures like that already, which is also common for MH (MH + T5 combos).
TropTrea
New member
Okay lets take the fixture I like of Pacific Sun the most, which is the Metis Hyperion.
Not knowing how many of which LED's they are using I could still group them into two basic channels.
Channel 1 = 400nm, 420nm, 450nm, 465nm 475 nm and some of the cool whites.
Channel 2 = 620nm, 580nm the neutral Whites and the rest of the cool whites.
Basicly dividing the total wattage equally between the two channels. With both channels on 100% you would probably have a 14,000K fixture roughly, decreasing power to channel 2 would allow the K to increase beyond even the K range, or decreasing the 1st channel would allow lower K levels.
With the 150 watts of everything on full you would still have enough light for up to a 95 gallon tank. I personally would decrease the total wattage on each module to around 120 watts each. Then 2 modules could easily handle a 48" long tank up to 150 gallons, or three modules could handle a tank 72" long up to 225 gallons.
Without out the extra electronics for remote control usage and the reduction from 8 channels to 2 manually controlled there should be a considerable cost savings.
On RTparty's not on mark up yes I'm aware of the mark up on fixtrures. A mass produced fixture that might have a list price of $100 can cost the retailer $50.00 but one that sells for $200 might cost him $140.00, But a $500 fixture cost more than $400. It was not unusual to find items on the internet well below my cost from a wholesaler especially on higher ticketed items.
Not knowing how many of which LED's they are using I could still group them into two basic channels.
Channel 1 = 400nm, 420nm, 450nm, 465nm 475 nm and some of the cool whites.
Channel 2 = 620nm, 580nm the neutral Whites and the rest of the cool whites.
Basicly dividing the total wattage equally between the two channels. With both channels on 100% you would probably have a 14,000K fixture roughly, decreasing power to channel 2 would allow the K to increase beyond even the K range, or decreasing the 1st channel would allow lower K levels.
With the 150 watts of everything on full you would still have enough light for up to a 95 gallon tank. I personally would decrease the total wattage on each module to around 120 watts each. Then 2 modules could easily handle a 48" long tank up to 150 gallons, or three modules could handle a tank 72" long up to 225 gallons.
Without out the extra electronics for remote control usage and the reduction from 8 channels to 2 manually controlled there should be a considerable cost savings.
On RTparty's not on mark up yes I'm aware of the mark up on fixtrures. A mass produced fixture that might have a list price of $100 can cost the retailer $50.00 but one that sells for $200 might cost him $140.00, But a $500 fixture cost more than $400. It was not unusual to find items on the internet well below my cost from a wholesaler especially on higher ticketed items.
Big E
Premium Member
I"ve been suggesting this for almost 2 years as the T5s can fill in missing spectrum and at the same time smooth out hot spots and fill in gap/shadows.
It also allows the ability to hit corals from another angle with helps with color and a fuller growth look.
Adding T5's works very well and is a very easy fix. We have been supplementing Halides for years with flourescent bulbs, so I don't see any reason for any resistance when the results are easily seen in color improvents and ambient look especially in Sps.
There are many people doing this already locally in my area and I've seen many tanks on the web also.
Do we know exactly what is missing from the LED that T5HO is filling in? Although this setup is supposed to work better than LED only, I don't consider this a solution. For people looking for efficiency (electricity and cost) and performance (coral growth and color), it appears LED can fit better than either T5HO or MH.
TropTrea
New member
When you building your own LED fixture the weakest points are around 420 nm and around 490 nm. Several of the T-5 Blue light bulbs help supplement these wave lenghts nicely.
Pacific Sun appears to have a combination with there LED's that greatly reduces these weak areas if not even eliminating them. It is my suspicion that they have some propriety LED's made just for them to fill in those weak areas. I believe a few other vendors also have some special LED's for special applications while others do not. This is why watching the specifications on a light fixture is important.
I highly doubt the LEDs were made specifically for Pacific Sun exclusively and not available to others. Those colors that are listed as "Made for Pacific Sun" are also available for DIYers and others (Cyan, UV or near UV, RED) and curiously enough, actual wavelengths for those LEDs are not specified on the spec sheet from their website.
Anyway, I do believe there's a spectrum issue with LED fixtures that T5s don't. If you compare the spectrum chart of these two, it is clear that there's wide spectrum range covered by T5HO bulbs from 400nm to 500nm, and if this is the range that is critical for Coral health, there are various LEDs available to cover the entire range.
What I don't get is - what's with this "full spectrum" or "no white LED" trend? What benefit do we get for adding green, amber, red LEDs?
Also, will the introduction of true UV LEDs, there could be T5 bulbs that use LEDs instead of the mercury gas and provide the benefit of both for reef tanks?
So now you have an Evergrow/Reefbreeders unit. There's nothing wrong with that, but I can't see anyone like Pacific Sun competing with the Chinese manufacturers, who have a cost advantage.
This is where I think it gets interesting. T5 seems to have continuous output from 400 to 500 nm, but LEDs do not. Looking at the graphs from Pacific Sun implies similar continuous output, but I don't know if smoothing has been applied to those.troptrea said:
It is possible to include 475, 485 and 495 nm and even 420 nm leds into a build, but are there still gaps in output? This is one of the things I am puzzling over with a DIY build. How many different spectrum LEDs do I need to include?
What is the definition of the "best" LEDs?
Big E
Premium Member
Yes........I have experimented successfully with a handful of separate commercial units. A lot depends on the type of unit you buy and also what ambient look you prefer.
It's been proven to work better............that's not a question.
If you're going to have a dominant Sps tank it's more demanding with spectrum and coverage. If you want to keep a common coral mixed reef you probably don't need to do any kind of supplementing. When you start getting into keeping some Rainblow Acans, chalices, they are a bit more demanding to pull out all the colors.
Everything is a trade-off............... a lot is dependent on an individuals expectations, where they live (electrical) cost ect. If they already have spent money on LEds. There are many things to weigh.
Honestly you need to catch up on what's been happening..........your'e about 6-8 months behind the curve. This is where the masses are going to instead of continually spending more money on new LED units every year or two.
A lot of those box units are pushing 160w and two (320w) of them can't perform better than 6 54w T5 bulbs (324 watts) in color, growth or overall coverage.
I was just at a vendors that ditched Vegas and went back to Halides because of poor performance.
For very cost conscious types they can really do well by getting used Gen 1 or 2 LEDs and supplementing with T5's.
I'm not sure if I'm 6-8 months behind, or 6-8 years behind, that's not the point. I still do not hear why T5 supplement is necessary, and what is lacking in LEDs alone. Is the missing spectrum within 400-500nm the real issue?
I personally don't give a damn about the brand of LED fixture. To my eyes, most don't have a clue anyway.
There must be a reason that trade-off is necessary to have a successful lighting system for a reef tank. I'm still looking for the reason, so that there would be a working solution with LEDs alone. If I must supplement with T5HOs, I'll just stay with T5HOs.
Big E
Premium Member
There are many issues..............hot spots, spectrum, lack of coverage, shadowing to much or too little par.
A lot depends on the design also........discs, banks of diodes, strips of diodes, ect.
That's all outside of getting the spectrum right which is challenging because they are working with single color diodes.
For me, I think single color diodes will never work for our application. Mixed color matrix type chips are when they may finally get a clue.
I'm still using T5's as you are because nothing out there has come close to meeting my expectations.
If people are already knee deep in spending on LEDs, supplementing is a good option.
Here's a thread I started a while back..............there's a lot of info that has been added and a ton of links---
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198810
A lot depends on the design also........discs, banks of diodes, strips of diodes, ect.
That's all outside of getting the spectrum right which is challenging because they are working with single color diodes.
For me, I think single color diodes will never work for our application. Mixed color matrix type chips are when they may finally get a clue.
I'm still using T5's as you are because nothing out there has come close to meeting my expectations.
If people are already knee deep in spending on LEDs, supplementing is a good option.
Here's a thread I started a while back..............there's a lot of info that has been added and a ton of links---
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198810
This already exists in the form of remote phosphor bulbs, using royal blue LEDs. Light distribution is nearly identical to a fluorescent bulb (though slightly more directional, which is good for reef lighting). It's just going to be a while before these hit the Reef market, where I think you would use a mix of leds from 400 to 500nm as the blue source rather than just a single royal blue, and use a much thinner layer of phosphor so as to get a more blue over all look rather than "pure white" that the commercial phosphors create.
These can however be DIYed relatively easily but finding the proper phosphor blend can be challenging as manufacturers are only focused on commercial lighting right now. But there are companies that will customize a phosphor sheet at a relatively reasonable price, just far too high a cost for the average DIY'er to justify a custom phosphor. (if 10 to 20 people wanted to go in on a purchase though it would be cost effective)
Cost wise these systems will make seance in a few years, specifically when you consider that their light conversion is reportedly 10-20% more efficient than traditional white LED light sources.
mussel and hate
New member
I don't get the no white concept myself. Why avoid inclusion of white LEDs? White LEDs are actually blue LEDs with a phosphor coating, so they work precisely as you suggest in your last sentence.
Full spectrum is a term bandied about frequently but interpreted differently by many. Some seem to feel that inclusion of red emitters is essential to a full spectrum LED array. I don't think any more red than that available from say warm white emitters is desirable. If the red emitters happen to be 620nm then I'm truly puzzled regarding the purpose of inclusion, perhaps this is in order to aid in the growth of dinos
conix67 said:
If your yes means we know exactly what LED is missing that T5 provides I don't quite agree. Pacific Sun is the only manufacturer to provide a multichip based LED light that mimics the most popular T5 lights. I have not yet seen any tanks based on this light to know one way or the other if we've got it figured out.
I agree with most of what you write. In some situations though T5 supplementation is not a preferred solution. I want a rimless tank with lighting well above the tank. T5 lighting spreads to much to work well in this situation, so I would like to go with all LED.
What LED make/model and what is poor performance? I see statements like this, but they are meaningless because there is no detail. LEDs are all over the place in terms of spectrum and control so the details are critical.
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
He said Vega's
Ha, hidden in plain sight...
So, old gen IA which they have abandoned for obvious reasons. Not a good example to evaluate LEDs on.
Personally I think we should be watching the current gen lights to see how they perform. Everyone is now using violet and blue/cyan in the mix and that should significantly improve colour. Far red also does not seem the best choice for colour balance. T5s emit in the 590 to 650 range and that seems to match up with fluorescing proteins at the upper end of the range as well as reflective proteins in some corals.
TropTrea
New member
The ideal LED build would have 410, 425, 440. 455, 470, and 485. But the availability of these LED's from one quality manufacturer is nearly impossible to find. Using Cool Whites we can decrease the needs for some of wave lengths similar to the use of Neutral whites can reduce our needs for LED's in the 600+ range.
I have looked a dozens of spectrum charts of commercial LED systems and to date I only see one that I would happy with and that is one of Pacific Sun's. AS some people said the no frills lighting systems are available from numerous imported sources at prices that are impossible to compete against. However I have yet to see one those fixtures with a spectrum balance even close to to Pacific Sun is offering.
For me when I'm looking at a light fixture I'm basically looking for spectrum and intensity above all else. Then I'll look at long range cost over roughly 5 years including electrical usage. The extra bells and whistles like multiple channels, storm effect, and fade in fade out, remote control I view as added possibilities of something to go wrong and count them as undesirables.
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
Ha, hidden in plain sight...
So, old gen IA which they have abandoned for obvious reasons. Not a good example to evaluate LEDs on.
Actually it's a great example. When they came out they were "THE system" to have. It's only hindsight that shows they didn't work (as well as advertised.) I've never liked AI stuff because the limited spectrum but people bought them like crazy still.
So, if the new gen stuff doesn't work as well, will everyone just say it was "a bad example" to evaluate LEDs by?
It is possible to build a light with 420, 430, 455, 475 and 495 leds using two suppliers. The lumia you went with is close to what you consider optimum. I'm not sure where you would find 410 violets.
Are you saying that the warm whites do not offer enough light in the green/yellow range for good colour balance? I'm still trying to get a handle on what is really needed in a diy build.
Right now each manufacturer has their own idea of the ideal mix. Over time those differences will converge based on user experience. That doesn't really help for someone who is equipping a system today though
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