Opinions on Brand New Set-up...PLEASE HELP!

K

kleach

New member
Hey Guys,

I am starting up a reef tank for the first time. I've stalked forums and been reading up a lot, but everyone has different opinions and its really hard to follow.

I was hoping that by posting here I might be able to get a general consesnsus on how to start up the tank. So far I bought the tank (Red Sea Max 250) and an RO/DI from bulk reef supply (4-stage with TDS meter, flush valve and pressure gauge).

I am going to buy live sand for the substrate (even though some people say its a scam), but I am not sure if I should do live rock or base rock and seed it myself. I think I'd prefer to do all base rock for the fact that it will cut down on the possibility of getting unwanted hitchikers. However, I am aware of the fact that I can still get some unwanted stuff like bubble algae when I put coral frags into the tank.

I was leaning towards using base rock expecting to have to wait for a while before I can get the tank up and running (so that the bacteria has enough time to grow). I think I am going to get the BRS Reef Saver rock since it wont have many organics on it since it came from underground. This should mean that the rock doesnt need to cure - or at least thats my impression. I went to my LFS and the guy there who was really awesome told me that I can get that base rock and add a damsel or 2 on the same day I add sand, but that I will have to dose it with supplemental bacteria, but I forgot the brand he told me to use. He told me that I have to add the fish their waste can help feed the bacteria. I'm not too sure about this because I dont want the poor little guy to suffer if the ammonia or nitrites spike too high.

Please let me know what you think:
Should I do live rock or base rock?
If I do base rock how long do I have to wait before I can start adding fish to the bio load?
Is dosing bacteria going to help the tank cycle?

Thanks!
 
I wouldnt bother with the live sand, its not really that alive and simply putting a couple pieces of live rock will seed the sand for you anyway. Its more important to decide what size sand you are going to use more than whether its live or not. A cup or two of live sand from a fellow reefer with an established tank added to dry sand that you buy is much more beneficial than buying the bags of live sand.
The live rock you are contemplating on buying, is that from an online vendor that would be shipped? If that is the case you will have to wait out a significant cycle for the rock once you put it in your tank. Pretty much the same wait if you buy base rock in my opinion, a good month. If you are thinking of buying live rock from an LFS, it won't really have to cycle, but will be more expensive. Pets warehouse in copiage has good prices and you can select the shapes/tpes you want, price is decent if you are getting a decent amount. Base rock is a good alternative if you dont mind waiting a while for the bacteria to build up in it. Even with the BRS reef saver rock, or any base rock, you will have to wait out just like you would a cycle because they are full of phosphates anyway, no matter what they say! Leads to long battles with algae. You can search info on reef central about that, and ways you can treat base rock to try and remove the phosphates.
Two things I would disagree with your LFS guy about is that you dont need or want to buy a damsel or 2- you can just drop a table shrimp in your tank to start the cycle if need be, and the damsel is not reef safe or friendly, so you would only have to try and catch it later to flush it down the toilet! Also, you wouldnt have to dose with supplemental bacteria if you buy any live rock, its already on it.

Sounds like you are prepared to take your time in setting up your tank once you put sand, whatever rock you get in it. This I think is the most important thing! Oh and good test kits.

As you said everybody has different opinions, these are just mine!
 
Also, if you go to a LIRA meeting you will find people are very helpful. A cup of live sand, a piece of live rock to seed, some chaeto, helpful info, that type of thing. Saves a lot of money and aggravation, just keep asking questions.
 
Hi, don't waste your money on "live sand" just get regular sand as it will become live with bacteria in no time during the cycling process. During my build I bought live rock and if I had to do it over again I would of gone with all dry porous or "dead rock". Ive had to deal with aiptasia, bubble algae, hair algae, turf algae, etc.. during the cycle process. I don't necessarily regret it because I chalk it up to a learning experience and Ive gain a ton of knowledge on how to not let those situations get out of hand in the future if they ever appear again. If I were you, I would use dead sand and dead rock and seed it all with one small piece of live rock (be sure to check the rock out carefully for any harmful critters or algae). I think you should wait at least 2-4 weeks before adding the two damsels.
 
1. Don't waste money on "live sand."
2. If you buy "base rock" that's clean and dry you'll have to introduce fuel/food for the bacteria to grow which could take several months depending on what you do.
3. Don't add damsels to the tank unless you plan on having aggressive fish or plan on tearing down the tank to get them out later. With the exception of some of the Chrysiptera sp (yellow tail, hemi-cyanea/Kupang) Damsels are real terrors.

IMO, buy regular reef sand and add a mix of base and live rock to save money. Rinse the rock of in a tub of new saltwater to dislodge some detritus and clean off any unwanted dead stuff/algae, etc. before putting it in the display tank. Then let the tank "cycle" to establish a good biological filter. Invest in test kits (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH) to track the cycle. Depending on the rock it can take anywhere from a week to several months. You NEED an ammonia spike at the beginning to fuel the growth of beneficial bacteria. After that, wait until the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate measure zero. Now you're ready to add a fish.
 
Thanks!
Rick - I am ABSOLUTELY going to join LIRA and I plan on joining and paying the dues at the next meeting. I wasn't able to make it to the last meeting and that probably would have been a great experience to meet everyone during the "Garage Sale".

The live rock I would be getting would be from a store just to cut down on die off and speed the cycling process. The only thing that scares me is I don't know what bad stuff (hitch hikers) looks like and the price is rediculous ($9 a lb for what looked like regular fiji). Of course I would shop around before buying the rock, but as everything in life goes, most of the time you get what you pay for. I'm sure the $9 a lb rock is great, but by starting with all base and taking some extra time I would think that I can get it to the same filtering capabilities as the live rock from the LFS.

As far as borrowing live sand, I do not know a single person who has a reef set-up, OR a fish tank for that matter. We have one at the school I work at, but truthfully I don't entirely trust what's in that tank. I was also going to use their RO/DI but the filters haven't been changed in over a year and a half so I just bought my own so I can maintain it and monitor the water quality. As far as buying a piece of live rock to seed, I am so novice that I couldn't spot harmful critters or algae if my life depended on it lol. That's why I was hoping to start fresh. It seems that half of people say using a dead shrimp will feed the bacteria whereas the other half swear that it doesn't work. I have no issues giving it a shot. So just to clarify, if I got some base sand, base rock and a cup of live sand from someone who has a weel established, clean tank, all I have to do is throw a shrimp in so it can deteriorate and help feed the bacteria? Just keep testing and when I have no ammonia and nitrites I should be good (after a water change to decrease nitrates)? I know to start slow when adding fish so I don't shock the bacteria to the point where they can't handle the bioload. Also, would it be worth it to buy base sand and a small bag of live sand to seed the tank? The LFS guy didn't try to sell me anything and was just letting me know about the supplemental bacteria. Also, I think his point was that the damsel would just help feed the cycle, but couldn't fish food (or the shrimp) so the same thing? I really dont want to kill any fish if I can help it - or give him a first hand tour of the Nassau County Sewage treatment plant lol. (flushing down toilet as you said)

Offdahook -
I agree that it would be a good learning experience, but I hope I never have to deal with all that stuff right off the start - I might cry lol. I also like the idea of using base rock so I can try to create an aquascape that I am happy with. I am about as far away from being artistic than anyone you have ever met so using base rock would be a great way to allow me to take my time and build an aquascape I am happy with. I was under the impression that 2-4 weeks was way too soon to add anything because the filtering capabilities of the rock and sand wouldn't be effective enough after only 2-4 weeks. The advantage (in my very novice opinion) is that by using the reef saver from BRS, there will be significantly less organice matter on the rock so it won't stink up my house and "cure" much faster. But does it really only take 2-4 weeks to cycle the tank? I know everything works on a tank by tank basis but 2-4 weeks would be AWESOME!

Thanks for replying and please keep the ideas/opinions rolling. I look forward to meeting some knowledgeable people at the next meeting.
 
My tank using all established live rock cycled immediately, for three weeks i never had a trace of ammonia even after feeding the tank fish food everyday, so i started to add fish (after quarantine) and never lost one due to excessive ammonia or nitrites. I also only said 2-4 weeks if you were going to add fish (a damsel) to establish the nitrogen cycle because the dead rock wouldn't have any live beneficial bacteria to start it. The actual completed cycle would take upwards of a month if you were to put a piece of decaying shrimp or such to start it.

After all the stuff I went through within the first 3 months of having the tank I was ready to give up, but I kept telling myself it will all be worth it in the end! Be sure to perform weekly water changes and practice good husbandry techniques. Also the new rock and sand may leach phosphates into the water leading to algae growth, I suggest getting a gfo/carbon reactor from BRS as it has done a great job in keeping things in check for me.

Also bear in mind that a reef tank is considered mature at the one year mark. During that time the tank may have completed the nitrogen cycle, but it will be going through other cycles/stages such as diatoms, hair algae/cyano, then the coralline algae growth. Keep in mind these are just different stages in the tanks growth and with good maintenance they will pass and go away and you'll have a mature tank!

PM me depending on where your located, I could give you a cup of live sand from my tank to jump start your tank!
 
There is nothing wrong with live sand as long as you know why you are adding it. you are not going to get any life in it besides bacteria. So the sand seeds your tank with bacteria. I've set up many tanks for people and I prefer to work with live sand. In a small tank like this its not going to cost you much more. When you put the rock in the sand will not kick up as much since its already coated with bacteria. Making it easier to aquascape.

Also, skip the damsels.
 
Agreed about the damsels. I think what I'm going to do is just buy the 50 lbs of the man made reef rock from my LFS and use some base rock for the bottom parts. I like the idea that the man made stuff doesn't impact the reef's, and its also pretty, cured and full of bacteria. I also don't have to worry about "hitch hikers" that I might not want.

Anyone disagree or think that at $8 a lb its a waste of money?
 
fishome25 said:
When you put the rock in the sand will not kick up as much since its already coated with bacteria.
Click to expand...
??? what does that mean? IMO... the rock should be in the tank, before the sand
kleach said:
I like the idea that the man made stuff doesn't impact the reef's, and its also pretty, cured and full of bacteria. I also don't have to worry about "hitch hikers" that I might not want.

Anyone disagree or think that at $8 a lb its a waste of money?
Click to expand...
where has it been 'cured and full of bacteria'...if it's been in a tank, there is still a chance of 'hitch hikers'.
 
Sorry to say it...but you WILL cry somewhere along the way. This hobby is not for the faint of heart. Kind of like raising kids. We can only do our best, learn as much as possible, and enjoy the experience!
 
haha yea, figured I'd shed some tears...its been a while. I'm just trying to do everything right, but the problem is it seems that there is no "one right way" and it confuses me so much. I'm trying to get a good sense of different people's opinions and figure out a game plan based on what everyone is telling me.

Albano:
As far as the live rock, I would be getting it from a LFS where the rocks are stored in their own tanks. I asked about cross contamination and was told that they are never mixed with regular live rock. I can only take their word for it but it seemed pretty legitimate to me.
 
Ill take this another direction. There are always people getting out of the hobby. Why not look around here and on MR and pick some up that way? Its usually 2 to 4 bucks a pound and very much live. Yes you can get some unwanted pests possibly but its worth the risk :)
 
Very true- some of the best live rock I've gotten was from other reefers selling it-and don't have to wait for it to cycle
 
Another option, you could start with all dry rock and sand then add a liquid nitrifying bacteria like Dr Tim's One & Only or similar product.
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/reef-nano-and-seahorse-aquarium#one
This only guarantees you to be pest free until you introduce your first inhabitant whether it be fish or coral. A quarantine set up for corals and or fish will greatly reduce your chances of introducing pests.
Research reef pests and quarantine procedures in general forums.
 
Yea, I would really love to set up a quarantine tank but I'm spending so much money up front for the start up that I really dont want to spend more money on another tank. What I'm thinking is setting up a 14 gallon biocube as a quarantine sooner or later
 
kleach said:
Yea, I would really love to set up a quarantine tank but I'm spending so much money up front for the start up that I really dont want to spend more money on another tank. What I'm thinking is setting up a 14 gallon biocube as a quarantine sooner or later
Click to expand...
a QT system is usually cheaper than a 'tank wipeout' from something that wasn't QT'd
 
good point...do you think a 14 gal biocube is a good choice for a QT? Or, is there something else I should be looking at?
 
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