Optimized Beckett

Another interesting question posed is can you fit more smaller bubbles in the same volume of water? The answer is probably practically yes, but it's a little complicated.

First to simplify it: Hypothetically, let's assume all the bubbles in the skimmer are the same size exactly. No this isn't reality but we will get there later. If we were to take a cube of water and measure it's volume and place the largest bubble inside that cube as possible it would look like:

SPHERE.png


The ratio of the volume of the sphere inside the cube and the cube's volume is the theoretical limit for how much air you can fit into a given amount of water (again assuming all the bubbles are the same size). Even if you made a 3D grid out of these cubes you would end up with the same ratio. Total volume / total spheres volume. One or many it's the same. There isn't a better way to fit more bubbles into the area.

Now lets expand on this and see if making smaller bubbles fit into the cube makes any difference. To keep it simple let's keep the same exact cube. Lets see how many bubbles we can fit into the cube by halfing the radius of each bubble:

SPHERES.png


The answer here is simple. We fit exactly 8 smaller spheres into the same cube. In my previous post we already established that 8 spheres with a half radius is the same volume as one sphere with the full size radius. Here is a diagram showing the 2D fit.

math.png


So by making the bubbles smaller we don't fit more in a given space. We do get the 2x surface area which should show up in our collection cup. Wew Hew! But our airflow meters will read exactly the same. Don't throw out your airflow meter just yet it still is useful, just be careful how you interpret its results.

So why did I say that, yes that smaller bubbles will mean higher air/water ratio? Let's break that original assumption. "All bubbles are the same size"

Lets assume that some bubbles combine and form larger bubbles or that even on generation they have different sizes. It's more realistic. We likely have a blend of bubble sizes in the skimmer. The beauty of smaller bubbles is they fit in between the bigger ones and break the "fixed" ratio we just established. At some point when we approach our set of smallest bubbles we will reach a limit which is affectively described above, but until then making smaller bubbles means that our skimmer theoretically can hold more air in that fixed volume.

So smaller bubbles mean more surface area AND a higher air/water ratio possible.
 
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I am curious about a couple of concepts here.

1) Is it really pulling more air? A simple airflow meter would determine this. It's hard to believe especially considering that everyone is getting more water flow. Usually somethings got to give. We have already established the fact that it wouldn't have to pull more air to be a better skimmer as long as bubble size is decreased significantly. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'd just like to see some numbers if someone has an airflow meter.

2)What is the optimum number of holes? My beckett has 4 holes measuring very close to 3/16" each. (dunno, if this is the same as yours) To get the same cross sectional hole space available to the injector at 1/16" per pop, I would need 36 holes.

3) Relating #1 and #2 together, do I get the same airflow with 36 x 1/16" holes (airflow meter) as I do with 4 x 3/16" just smaller bubbles?

If I had an airflow meter I would do this myself. This might be the thing that pushes me over the edge to buy one...

Math on hole size comparison:
3/16" area = 0.0088 square inches
1/16" area = 0.00098 square inches

So 0.0088 / 0.00098 = 9.0 (a 3/16" hole is 9x bigger than a 1/16" hole)

So since we have 4, 3/16" holes, we need 4 * 9 = 36, 1/16" holes to match.

I'm not suggesting that this is the optimum number of holes, I'm just curious.
 
Also a benefit woud be that smaller bubbles will allow a more stable head of foam, whereas that larger bubbles cause "burping" of the skimmer and disturbing the head of foam. Reducing the effectiveness of the skimmer.
I have an MRC-2 recirculating dual beckett skimmer and this thread is very interesting to me. I might be able to downsize my recirculating pump to something much smaller and still achieve the same results.
 
Hi All

I just tried this mod and it does not seem to be working....
I have 32 holes @1/16th inch and used the earlier pics as a model.

I am not getting any smaller bubble size and my skimmer seems to be performing less optimally after the mod.

Skimmer is a Trigger Systems TS300 single becket, driven by an OR6500 which I estimate the actual flow to be 1600gph.

I dont really notice any differences in the performance so far.

maybe I missed something....Hope so.

einsteins
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8432113#post8432113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnarowe
Keelay:
So you are a latent fan of square skimmers. I love it! :lol: :lol:

I was going to go triangular, but the math got really hard... :)
 
cant wait to see how this turns out.i just bought a quad. beckett that runs off a sequence manta ray.not looking forward to the electric bill.i have four extra becketts that i can modify.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8431154#post8431154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Keelay
1) Is it really pulling more air? A simple airflow meter would determine this. It's hard to believe especially considering that everyone is getting more water flow. Usually somethings got to give. We have already established the fact that it wouldn't have to pull more air to be a better skimmer as long as bubble size is decreased significantly. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'd just like to see some numbers if someone has an airflow meter.
No its not going to pull more air. Even if you match the area (going into your third question) of the holes it should pull a little less. But by drilling smaller holes we should be able to keep the bubble size small even when we increase air draw which is really important.

Most becketts are built on purpose with 1/4" air lines to limit the amount of air they can pull to keep the bubble size small. When they increased the air the bubbles would get larger. If you increase your air line size to 3/8" or 1/2" you'll see a lot more air. Becketts can already draw a whole bunch more air per watt when modified, getting better energy efficiency than any needlewheel currently. The problem was the bubble size which this might help with. Afterall, becketts injectors aren't designed for this application.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8431154#post8431154 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Keelay
3) Relating #1 and #2 together, do I get the same airflow with 36 x 1/16" holes (airflow meter) as I do with 4 x 3/16" just smaller bubbles?
You'll probably need a hole or two more of the small holes to get the same airflow because with more holes there is more surface area to drag on the air.
 
I have 32 1/16th holes drilled in my becket and I am not getting any change in bubble size at all. might be less air now than before the Mod. I am certainly not seeing the results described so far.....I even put in a control valve on the line feeding the beckett so I could cut back the flow if needed. So far I am not in need of any reduced flow at all.

ein
 
einsteins,

I think that you may need to look at getting a different (pressure rated) pump, such as a genx pcx-55 or iwaki md-55rlt. Just looking at the curve of an OR 6500 real quick, I think that it dies at appx. 5 or so ft. of head. I don't know specifically, but a single Beckett probably introduces about 5ft of head itself.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8433903#post8433903 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kimoyo
No its not going to pull more air. Even if you match the area (going into your third question) of the holes it should pull a little less. But by drilling smaller holes we should be able to keep the bubble size small even when we increase air draw which is really important.

Most becketts are built on purpose with 1/4" air lines to limit the amount of air they can pull to keep the bubble size small. When they increased the air the bubbles would get larger. If you increase your air line size to 3/8" or 1/2" you'll see a lot more air. Becketts can already draw a whole bunch more air per watt when modified, getting better energy efficiency than any needlewheel currently. The problem was the bubble size which this might help with. Afterall, becketts injectors aren't designed for this application.

You'll probably need a hole or two more of the small holes to get the same airflow because with more holes there is more surface area to drag on the air.

Your probably right about a few more than the 36 holes to match the air flow performance. 36 smaller holes will have more surface area and therefore more air flow resistance than 4 larger holes.

What I am curious about is the seeming coincidence between two things. When operating a normal unmodified beckett you have to throttle down the airflow to get smaller bubbles. In this application most people so far have around 20 holes in their modified beckett, which is somewhere equivalent to throttling the airflow down about halfway.

They are claiming to get smaller bubbles. It is possible that the size of the air injector holes isn't as significant as the throttle point and this is all they are seeing. I hope I'm wrong and there is something more here going on here.

I'm going to try this MOD too. We'll just say I sceptically hopeful.
 
Well I ran some tests on a standard Beckett, with dual flow meters on it today, in preparation to testing a modified Beckett. I tested the two pumps I have on hand, a Sequence 5200 and Sequence 3600.

The glue is drying on the hole plugs now, I'll do some more testing in the morning.

To mod the Beckett, I put some blue tape on the outside of the holes and dripped some #16 in to each hole to dry. Not sure if it will stick well enough, but as an acrylic guy I had to use try acrylic glue first. :)

I did notice that I was getting significantly less air flow from a standard Beckett than the last time I did this test, but I was using dual 1/4" lines that were 5' long to the flow meters, so I'm sure that is restricting the air somewhat.

I'll chart everything up tomorrow and post it when I get all the data.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8434499#post8434499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pennilessreefer
einsteins,

I think that you may need to look at getting a different (pressure rated) pump, such as a genx pcx-55 or iwaki md-55rlt. Just looking at the curve of an OR 6500 real quick, I think that it dies at appx. 5 or so ft. of head. I don't know specifically, but a single Beckett probably introduces about 5ft of head itself.

pennilessreefer
Thanks for the advice....I keep my skimmer out of the sump and use a submergable pump (OR6500) to feed it........are there any pressure rated sumergable pumps? Otherwise I have to tear down the sump and all the plumbing to drill for an external pump.

at least I didn't screw up my mod on the beckett...lol

thanks again
ein
 
I just did the mod myself and noticed an increase in foam head and did have to throttle back the pump a bit..Im using an MRC-2 skimmer with Mag18 pump. Everything seems to be running fine..the only concern I have is since the holes are so small now what is the likelihood of them getting clogged over time and affecting the skimmers performance???
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8438573#post8438573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bobafet1
I just did the mod myself and noticed an increase in foam head and did have to throttle back the pump a bit..Im using an MRC-2 skimmer with Mag18 pump. Everything seems to be running fine..the only concern I have is since the holes are so small now what is the likelihood of them getting clogged over time and affecting the skimmers performance???

SWEET Boba!

How many holes did you drill? Is yours a single beckett? (I'm still trying to muster up the cahones to drill one of my spares).
 
jarhead,
my skimmer is the single beckett skimmer...I drilled about 34 holes in the beckett..the skimmer has been working pretty good so far..I'll give another update later on...
 
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