small alien
The fungus is among us.
Ah. Right. Thanks for the correction. What is yours eating now and how long have you had them? Can you describe your experience a bit? Thanks.
Orange Spotted Filefish
- Thread starter Dizzle63
- Start date
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Very nearly 8 months now.
I finally saw the female take some frozen mysis the other day. That was a big moment for me. Well, and her, too.
Sure. The first few weeks were all about slowly starving. They would eat, but not enough to sustain themselves and with no energy at all. They had some acros frags in their tank, but never showed any interest aside from cursory picking. As I said, these never took to food on a coral skeleton.
I thought the female was a goner. She was literally paper thin. In a fit of desperation, I ordered some live mysis. I didn't think they'd take them as they hadn't been interested in anything that big. The first feeding after they came in, I dumped 15 or so live mysis in. They both went crazy! Chasing the crustaceans all over the tank. I didn't see either one actually catch one, but from that moment on they were both interested in food again. Nothing larger than a copepod, but still interested.
Oh, and I offered the live mysis again after that. They were never again interested in them. Who knows?
So, I needed to find something small with lots of energy to help them put on some weight. The solution for these two was Nutramar Ova. I still feed them a little of that every day, though much less than I used to as I'm worried about them getting fatty liver.
Once I got one food that they would eat heartily, I started slowly adding other things to their diet. 1-2 months ago, the male finally remembered that he was supposed to be a substrate picker. He re-taught the trick to the female. And now they are pretty darn easy.
Another thing to keep in mind that I just remembered is that for mine, their appetites seemed to really respond to water quality. When conditions deteriorated, so did their appetites. So, lots of water changes for me, especially because I was literally throwing food at them for a while. (In the range of 4-5 cubes of food, soaked in oyster eggs, vitamins and HUFAs, 4 times per day. LOTS of food.)
Monkeyfish
Active member
Umm Fish - How big is the tank that you keep the filefish in and what type of filtration and water flow/movement are you using?
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
They are in a 40XL (4' x 1' x 1'), which is a nice size tank. They do use all of the lateral swimming room, but Matt keeps them and spawns them in much smaller tanks. I think he uses 24 gal. cubes.
As for flow, I have four of the prop type of powerheads, set up to form a gyre (two on each side, blowing opposite down the long axis), and the return from the sump flows in through a 1/2" inch line that rings the tank, drilled every couple inches or so (can't remember the name at the moment).
As for filtration, well, it's attached to the rest of my system and that's about 1,400 gallons of water. Big skimmers, tanks for algae, deep sand bed tanks, etc. Still, their tank stays a little more algae covered than I'd like because of all the food. The seahorse tank is the same.
As for flow, I have four of the prop type of powerheads, set up to form a gyre (two on each side, blowing opposite down the long axis), and the return from the sump flows in through a 1/2" inch line that rings the tank, drilled every couple inches or so (can't remember the name at the moment).
As for filtration, well, it's attached to the rest of my system and that's about 1,400 gallons of water. Big skimmers, tanks for algae, deep sand bed tanks, etc. Still, their tank stays a little more algae covered than I'd like because of all the food. The seahorse tank is the same.
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Thanks so much Umm, fish? for sharing your very unique experiences with us. The Nutramar ova is such a great food for so many finicky fish. I have to resist the temptation to eat some myself sometimes.
So, it sounds like you feel you have a success story on your hands, at least in terms of feeding to keep body weight and general health. That is great. Good luck catchin' some eggs.
If I may, I want to throw out a side item that I think is really relevant here. And that is the theory of Morphic Resonance as put forth by British biologist Rupert Sheldrake. The idea is basically that we are enmeshed in "fields" of information that contain all the information for the forms and behavior we see in nature (it's not in the genes, folks). And when a form is repeated (more generations for example), the field of information associated with it is "strengthened". It's made "deeper" and, most importantly here in the case of a behavior, MORE LIKELY TO OCCUR AGAIN! In this case, the ramification of his theory would be that once a single member of a given species begins a new behavior (for whatever reason. in this case captivity), it becomes more likely that other members of the species will repeat it.
The more of these amazing fish that get trained onto prepared foods, the easier and more likely it will be for others to do so as the behavior is reinforced in the behavioral "fields" associated with the species.
Here's a link to Rupert's site.
http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html
* To help clarify his theory right off the bat if you're interested in looking at his site, Mr. Sheldrake doesn't suppose to explain what these fields ARE per se. More so the evidence that they exist and how they function if you see the distinction. I just don't want anyone to get unnecessarily hung up on the "what the heck kinda crazy field theory b*&lsh%t theory is that?" It's about observable data. It's an absolutely fascinating theory and I encourage you to check it out.
peace, the small one
So, it sounds like you feel you have a success story on your hands, at least in terms of feeding to keep body weight and general health. That is great. Good luck catchin' some eggs.
If I may, I want to throw out a side item that I think is really relevant here. And that is the theory of Morphic Resonance as put forth by British biologist Rupert Sheldrake. The idea is basically that we are enmeshed in "fields" of information that contain all the information for the forms and behavior we see in nature (it's not in the genes, folks). And when a form is repeated (more generations for example), the field of information associated with it is "strengthened". It's made "deeper" and, most importantly here in the case of a behavior, MORE LIKELY TO OCCUR AGAIN! In this case, the ramification of his theory would be that once a single member of a given species begins a new behavior (for whatever reason. in this case captivity), it becomes more likely that other members of the species will repeat it.
The more of these amazing fish that get trained onto prepared foods, the easier and more likely it will be for others to do so as the behavior is reinforced in the behavioral "fields" associated with the species.
Here's a link to Rupert's site.
http://www.sheldrake.org/homepage.html
* To help clarify his theory right off the bat if you're interested in looking at his site, Mr. Sheldrake doesn't suppose to explain what these fields ARE per se. More so the evidence that they exist and how they function if you see the distinction. I just don't want anyone to get unnecessarily hung up on the "what the heck kinda crazy field theory b*&lsh%t theory is that?" It's about observable data. It's an absolutely fascinating theory and I encourage you to check it out.
peace, the small one
small alien
The fungus is among us.
Can you expand a bit on your perspective, snorvich?
It is difficult to condense a college course on evolution and its dynamics on RC. But, in essence, any behavior which yields a competitive advantage will result in that behavior being species adopted although not in the short run. Now that is way over simplification, but perhaps it gives the general concept.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
But, Steve, that's not necessarily anything to do with evolution or genetics. That could also just be learned behavior. The fact that they can pick up on advantageous behaviors could be coded with the actual learned behavior itself just being what the animal's picked up that works.
small alien
The fungus is among us.
To my mind, "Darwinism" is a related concept but not what I'm suggesting as such. I'm suggesting learned behaviors become more and more likely to be repeated the more times they occur. Literally. So, if the initial chance of it occuring is 1/100, it might go to 1/50 once it's happened once. And when it happens again the likelihood just increases again and again. It's an accelerating curve kind of phenomenon. And I'm suggesting that it would apply to fish learning to feed in captivity. With all do respect, no one's asking for a free quarter of evolution dynamics, I'm trying to get a comment with more specificity on what I'm putting forth which is "morphic resonance" as proposed by Rupert Sheldrake and how it might relate to these lovely fish learning to take prepared foods.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Well, learned behavior I can buy. Reef fish are really smart, have really good memories, and are really observant. When they see another fish doing something that looks like a good idea, they will try it out. If it works for them, they'll keep it. In that way, fish performing a behavior can spread across the species.
Do I believe that there's some sort of connection between the members of a species such that non-observed behaviors can be spread by some unexplained mechanism? Not really, but I haven't read any of Sheldrake's writing, either. I tend to go with Occam, though. Animals watching each other seems like a much easier explanation than trying to involve some sort of resonance.
Do I believe that there's some sort of connection between the members of a species such that non-observed behaviors can be spread by some unexplained mechanism? Not really, but I haven't read any of Sheldrake's writing, either. I tend to go with Occam, though. Animals watching each other seems like a much easier explanation than trying to involve some sort of resonance.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
Non-pugnacious fish that are smaller than the files would be my recommendation. But, who knows? Matt keeps them with all kinds of fish and does well with them, but he also keeps a close eye on things and removes or moves fish when necessary. As I said before, citron gobies were too much for mine.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
The citrons were big. They were also starting to get into that pre-spawn territorial mood and sectioned off a big portion of the 40XL as theirs. But the files like to roam the whole tank for _their_ prespawn ritual, and the four fish's needs clashed. Like anything, small tanks have different rules than big tanks.
Did you run into problems with parasites? I am looking at getting either a pair or two in a 75. They will be with a tail spot blenny and a young pair of ocellaris clowns. I would also like to add some flasher wrasses down the road, but not before the filefish are eating properly.
"Umm fish?"
Premium Member
I personally think the files are pretty territorial. I've seen them attacking their reflections in the glass prior to spawning. But I don't know if that's a general consensus.
