over lighting tanks?

[clevebill]

I see all these new fixtures led hybrids,other led fixtures out with a lot of watts.iam curious are some of these fixtures just overkill.one comes to mind ati powermodule hybrid. its bad enough I torched corals when I had a t5 fixture now ya add leds to the mix for even more power.there is a guy from my area that has a 75 gallon tank all sps and all he runs is 4 4ft t5 bulbs on a icecap ballast and he gets crazy growth and color.is there going to come a point where enough is enough.i read somewhere corals can take only so much light before it comes more harm then good.

 

[ali1]

Spectrum more important. If you got reds and greens everywhere, your not growing sh!t.

 

[Timfish]

It depends a lot on the coral species. For example, Porites porites is found from the surface to depths of 160' while the very similar looking and closely related P. banneri is only found from 15' to 30', clearly not as adaptable.

 

[dkeller_nc]

It's highly unlikely that an aquarist could generate light levels that match 5-15 feet deep under an equatorial sun. And 5-15 feet is where most of the corals that we keep are collected, or maricultured.

Having said that, it may be harmful to try to match radiation levels on a natural reef. For one thing, a lot of the corals that we acquire have been in captivity for a month or more, and have adapted to lower light levels. It shouldn't surprise us that placing them back under the equivalent intensity of their native habitat will nuke them.

Moreover, the nutrient environment in the ocean is quite different than our tanks, and I would think that coral nutrition does play a role in the coral's generation of light-protective pigments.

 

[Timfish]

It's highly unlikely that an aquarist could generate light levels that match 5-15 feet deep under an equatorial sun. And 5-15 feet is where most of the corals that we keep are collected, or maricultured.

Having said that, it may be harmful to try to match radiation levels on a natural reef. For one thing, a lot of the corals that we acquire have been in captivity for a month or more, and have adapted to lower light levels. It shouldn't surprise us that placing them back under the equivalent intensity of their native habitat will nuke them.

Moreover, the nutrient environment in the ocean is quite different than our tanks, and I would think that coral nutrition does play a role in the coral's generation of light-protective pigments.

I'll disagree. First off at 5 meters (16' - 17') the average lux world wide is only about 19,000 (roughly 420 PAR)(1) and at one location referenced in "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III at 4 meters has PAR plateau at 800 PAR (2). Looking at Bali Aquarium, a mariculture business in Bali, they have stuff at depths as deep as 20 meters. Even some animals they are mariculturing at depths of 4 or 5 meters are in very turbid waters with visibility as low as 5 meters(3) which argues light levels not only easily attainable by the average aquarist but potentially significantly less than what display tank may have.

Secondly, it is tempting to think a coral can be feed a special diet to develop specific colors but the overriding control is genetics. The fluorescing and chromo proteins a coral produces are first dictated by it's genes and no nutritional supplement is going to produce proteins it can't code for. Further lighting conditions influences the fluorescing proteins as well so even if a nutritional supplement was identified that would enhance the production of a protein if the lighting conditions are not correct the protein may not fluoresce or the coral may not produce it. (4, See the articles by Dana Riddle) Below is an example of a bicolor Pink Birdsnest colony that has coloration influenced by lighting.

(1) Delbeek and Sprung "The Reef Aquarium" Vol I pg 13
(2) Delbeek and Sprung "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III pg 447
(3) http://www.baliaquarium.net/categories/cultured-corals.html
(4) Dana Riddle Coral Coloration pts 1-7 starting here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature and here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/12/corals

 

[johnpasternak]

Why don't red and green grow sh..

 

[billdogg]

The short answer is that the spectrum of light given off by red and green LED's is of little or no use to the corals we are trying to keep.

 

[Timfish]

The short answer is that the spectrum of light given off by red and green LED's is of little or no use to the corals we are trying to keep.

It can be argued that white LEDs are a better way to supply green and red wavelengths (especially with green LEDs considering their inferior effeciency) but many of the fluorescing proteins corals produce have peak excitation wavelengths in the green, yellow, orange and red spectrum. But we also have to consider other animals as well. P565 is found in Tube anemonies has a peak excitation at 548nm (green/yellow) and emission at 565nm (yellow). If you want to see the colors emitted by these proteins you have to supply the spectrum.

An interesting possibility we now have with LEDs is setting up tanks that do not highlight particular corals but can focus on animals that produce proteins of a specific excitation or emission band.

 

[postie1686]

:headwally:so much to take in....

 

[mussel and hate]

An interesting possibility we now have with LEDs is setting up tanks that do not highlight particular corals but can focus on animals that produce proteins of a specific excitation or emission band.

This is what I find particularly exciting about LED. I envision species specific spotlighting with a colour and intensity-tunable overall fill. This would necessitate a high emitter count DIY with control of multiple channels.

 

[GroktheCube]

I'll disagree. First off at 5 meters (16' - 17') the average lux world wide is only about 19,000 (roughly 420 PAR)(1) and at one location referenced in "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III at 4 meters has PAR plateau at 800 PAR (2). Looking at Bali Aquarium, a mariculture business in Bali, they have stuff at depths as deep as 20 meters. Even some animals they are mariculturing at depths of 4 or 5 meters are in very turbid waters with visibility as low as 5 meters(3) which argues light levels not only easily attainable by the average aquarist but potentially significantly less than what display tank may have.

Secondly, it is tempting to think a coral can be feed a special diet to develop specific colors but the overriding control is genetics. The fluorescing and chromo proteins a coral produces are first dictated by it's genes and no nutritional supplement is going to produce proteins it can't code for. Further lighting conditions influences the fluorescing proteins as well so even if a nutritional supplement was identified that would enhance the production of a protein if the lighting conditions are not correct the protein may not fluoresce or the coral may not produce it. (4, See the articles by Dana Riddle) Below is an example of a bicolor Pink Birdsnest colony that has coloration influenced by lighting.

(1) Delbeek and Sprung "The Reef Aquarium" Vol I pg 13
(2) Delbeek and Sprung "The Reef Aquarium" Vol III pg 447
(3) http://www.baliaquarium.net/categories/cultured-corals.html
(4) Dana Riddle Coral Coloration pts 1-7 starting here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature and here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/12/corals

I snorkled on an indo-pacific fringing reef for the first time last year, and I was surprised by how turbid the water was in many cases, especially near shore. There were still lots of gorgeous, brightly colored corals, along with some clams that blew away anything I've seen in captivity.

I wouldn't be surprised if the stuff at 10 meters near shore was getting less light than the top 12" of my water column on average, and there were thriving and colorful "high light" corals like branching and stag acros, hydnophora, etc.

 

[kc350twin]

This topic hits home with me. I have been pumping tons of PAR in my tank for a while now and my SPS slowly get pale and wither away. I was always told to shoot for the 400-500 PAR level. One day I was at a fellow reefers house grabbing a few frags and I had my PAR meter with me. I measured his PAR (halides) and max at the SPS tips was 200-250 for only 4 hrs a day. He always has Deep rich colors on his SPS and great growth. I have backed my Radions down considerably and I am maintaining good colors. I feel in many ways all these adjustments and intensity are hurting me more then helping sometimes.

 

[2_zoa]

I've asked before for PAR numbers from someone who was diving. Anywhere. I never got any numbers. I'd still like to see some real numbers from the ocean at a depth of about 20'. I've never thought the ocean was as bright as our tanks, and that was before or right at the beginning of LED's. My fixtures are at 65% and I'm thinking of turning them down some more.

Short answer, yes. I believe you can have too much light. I believe we are seeing the next wave in the hobby right now. Just like the skimmer wave. Bigger is better, and better cost more money. More money gives you useless addon's. Etc.... It's business. Never mind the masses. It's here now and we'll figure out the rest later. Zero thought to conservation. Think about any applience you have....nothing gets repaired anymore. Just buy new, it cost less. What happens to the trash???? Argh.......

 

[ReeferBatman]

It can be argued that white LEDs are a better way to supply green and red wavelengths (especially with green LEDs considering their inferior effeciency) but many of the fluorescing proteins corals produce have peak excitation wavelengths in the green, yellow, orange and red spectrum. But we also have to consider other animals as well. P565 is found in Tube anemonies has a peak excitation at 548nm (green/yellow) and emission at 565nm (yellow). If you want to see the colors emitted by these proteins you have to supply the spectrum.

Well said! You did a great job surmising the situation.

To continue the craziness... each protein may have different excitation peaks in different species!

We'll take P486 For example...

Someone asked about Par vs depth? This was taken in Hawaii. Different Par measurements going down to 20m (65ft)

And although we focus on fluorescent proteins, some corals [though the minority] still use chlorophyll, which requires a peak up in the red part of the spectrum. Here's an example of a favia.

Don't forget Photo-period. Anything more than 5-6 hours causes extra energy devoted to cellular repair instead of growth.

Past a point, the corals will fluoresce brighter as they are receiving too much light. IMO, the overall goal is to get them JUST above the point where they are "full" (my guess is about 105-110% their needed light intensity) - then we will get amazing colors as that small extra energy is completely reflected/refracted/fluoresced back. But much more past this point, and they will suffer from photo-inhibition and cellular degradation and start going downhill.

It's a tight balance to walk.

I cut back from 6xT5 + LEDs to 4xT5 + LEDS, and cut my photo period from 8-9 hours to about 6 hours and I'm seeing better coloration and growth.

Get your 'spectrum' right and you'll do well, even without a million lights/watts/leds over your tank.

 

[kc350twin]

Reeferbatman, I agree with your post. Some of the locals in my area including Jason Fox have some very short photo periods on their tanks. One of my favorites has a 4 hour hour halide schedule but has a 12hr period of ReefBrites with very low par I would guess. (We only measured the par with halides on)

I wanted to know is there a level of light /PAR that I can light my tank for me visually but not cause a growth reaction from the corals?

 

[ReeferBatman]

Reeferbatman,

I wanted to know is there a level of light /PAR that I can light my tank for me visually but not cause a growth reaction from the corals?

I'm confused by the question... Are you asking to see the tank without inducing the corals to start their day part of their circadian rhythm? Blue light primes this reaction... so if you only wants to see the tank then red light would be the way to go there... many creatures eyes or corals did not evolve to need/ see red light either so you can also see night activity from creatures such as bristle worms and pods and some fish. everyone should try it at least once it's awesome to see crazy things that would normally hide from white light or even blue light! Icall it the red light challenge lol.

but this will not induce any of the fluorescent cool colors from the corals that you've come to know and love you really need actinic into the blue spectrum for maximum cool coral colors... but as we said each coral might have its own unique combination of needs including light up to and possibly into the yellow orange red spectrum.

If your 'day' lights are only on your 4-6 hours than you can pretty easily get away with extra blue/night lighting... especially if its not to much intensity. IE your corals would still do fine with a few hours of the metal hallide followed and proceeded by an hour or two or three of blue light.

Following that prescription shouldn't overwhelmed the coral to too much you will lose a small amount of energy devoted to cellular repair but not nearly as much as if you kept the metal hallide on for that entire time.

 

[ReeferBatman]

looking at it another way you could use a very very dim white light source to simulate moons actual par values underwater for that I would literally use one maybe two simple white LED's on the entire tank on a Dim setting. the key here is low intensity because once that intensity will reach a certain point it will prime the coral to start getting ready to photosynthesize. I will post a image of moonlight light spectrum when I get home. sorry for any typos in this or the last post I'm using my cell phone.

PS whatever method you use I still hold that corals will need a completely dark period to keep their circadian rhythms in check. some of my research has led me to believe that the dark period may only need to be as short as two to three hours to reset their day/night cycle but i would still reccomend more... but the corals do need a dark period...

 

[kc350twin]

You definitely got my question spot on. The reason I asked was the the guy I get many frags from has halides and ReefBrites. The ReefBrites are on for 12hrs 9-9pm and the halides are on for 4 hours noon to 4pm with relatively low par at 250par at the highest sps. His colors are very deep and rich colors. I am sure it has a lot more to do with then just light but I strive for colors like that and have been able to keep most of his colors the same in my tank. They have to damn near on the sand.
My goal is to have a longer viewing period but from what it sounds like that may not be possible or advised.

 

[ReeferBatman]

For a longer viewing period, you're fine doing even like he does even up to a 12 hour total cycle as long as the extra light (over the 4-5-ish hour peak day lighting) isn't too intense to overwhelm them into too much photoinhibition.

you will sacrifice a small bit of growth, but whats the point of having them if you can't enjoy their cool colors for a few hours, right?

It's all compromises in this hobby.

And if at that point your only going for viewing pleasure, may I suggest Blue LEDS? They make many colors pop more than T5's, although I do also really like the looks of Actinic T5's + Blue LEDs for 'cool viewing effect', they compliment each other well.

PS, make your changes slowly. Don't add 3 morning blue hours + 3 night blue hours all at once... acclimate the corals starting in hour increments for a few days each 'hour-step' I would suggest.

 

[Timfish]

Well said! . . .

Thank you! But I'm gong to have to go back and reread Dana Riddles stuff. I totally missed that about P486 having different excitation and emission bands depending on species! :lol:

. . . some corals [though the minority] still use chlorophyll,

Did you really mean to say this? All hermetic corals are using Symbodinium spp. dinoflagellate algae. It is true the zooxantheallea aren't going to add anything to coloration except brown as they are absorbing light and not fluorescing or or reflecting much light like the chromo proteins corals produce.