Ozone use

[Boomer]

jr

Looks good

but w/o a air dryer the actual output is lower and more of a guess.


Yes, as the humidity of the incoming air can really kill the ozone, as much as 75 % unless it is a UV bulb ozone unit, which is not affected by moisture but the issue with these is they run full-blown with no control dial. Some just go without the air dryer and and use a higher set-point. Using an air-dryer can be a real pain, taking it out ever week or so and cooking it in the oven unless it is a automated air-dryer and they re not cheap. I had a guy here a couple of years ago that did not care about money and and when I got down with him he dumped ~$2,000 into his unit only two-weeks later to break the reactor and a create flood.

 

[Avast Marine]

Looks like a bunch of good info was deleted by a moderator. Please send an explanation by PM or email. I am pretty sure the discussion was limited to clarification of design principles and execution of set up, not in violation of the terms of use.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am a bit baffled myself... .as I was trying to keep up with great interest.

 

[jrpark22000]

I asked a RC Staff member, as I was also puzzled. Here is their response;

"A vendor is welcome to discuss the topic at hand however they may not discuss their products or services or how their product/service compares to others.
And to be clear here...Boomer's post was removed because he quoted Avast in his reply..so it was really the Avast information being removed. Boomer's information was just a casualty of that."



Dan, Justin and Boomer, there was some good information removed. I was given the OK to ask; If any of you can remember or summarize w/o such violation, can some of the missing info be restated?

I know I am learning and it sounds like a few others are tagging along as well.

 

[jrpark22000]

Some just go without the air dryer and use a higher set-point. Using an air-dryer can be a real pain, taking it out ever week or so and cooking it in the oven unless it is a automated air-dryer and they are not cheap.

I anticipate the hassle, so I have 15lbs of desiccant on order. I'm planning to dry bulk batches once a month or less, lowering my maintenance.

Regarding corona discharge generators, I have done some reading where people have stated humid air will shorten the life either by nitric acid degeneration or by other means. Anyone have any data on the lifespan when humid or dry air is used? I don't have a direct way to measure the generator output, I am left to the indirect measuring of what ORP is in the tank.

For an update on my rig, the new GAC canister reactor is being delivered today. I will have results from the new configuration this weekend, baring catastrophe.

 

[Boomer]

Anyone have any data on the lifespan when humid or dry air is used?

I have some graphs of that. 55 mg Ozone will drop to 40 mg @ 30 % Humidity And I have seen another one where 100 mg is cut right in half @ 30 % H. You can only achieve full output when the H is 0.

 

[jrpark22000]

but w/o a air dryer the actual output is lower and more of a guess.

Looks like 1.5 lbs of desiccant is going to last about 5 days. My room averages 40-45% humidity per the humidistat. Drying 13lbs on 4 cookie sheets for 3 hours worked well. This should be low enough maintenance. Adding the desiccant, I was able to drop the dial on the ozone generator from 100mg/hr to 50mg/hr and saw an increase in ORP in my tank. At 125gal system volume I am at .4mg/hr per gallon and running 320 orp at peak. I still have a white bacteria issue in the tank but it is new (upgraded to the 110 a month ago.) I'll give the system 6 months or more to establish before I think about raising it more using O3.

reporting back with results

I was able to get the jumbo canister style GAC reactor installed. It looks like my feed pump is going to be my limiting factor, it is not pressure rated. With the new GAC reactor I am able to push 600gph or more and still only able to achieve 3psi internal pressure in the O3 reactor. Restricting the effluent output only reduces flow. I'll run the system as is watching longer term results. I'd prefer to not add complexity with a separate feed pump.

Currently I am feeding the O3 reactor with 300-400 gph. This keeps the bed of GAC from overturning too much. With my first test setup, I had the ROX GAC constantly overturning and breaking up at 300gph due to the small GAC reactor canister. I was able to see a black film on the effluent output piping. BRS has stated O3 can break down the binding agent in the ROX. I want to see if keeping the bed calm will minimize this.

With the increase of flow I was getting some burping in my sump at effluent output. Simple piping rearrangement has stopped 100% of this. I am using 1" piping with about 3' of length after the GAC. This gives space and time for the air and water to calm in the tubing. If you listen to this piping you hear/feel the burping for the first 2/3 of its length. I then use 2 down facing pipes off back to back "œT"s and a vent to discharge into the sump. Pictures will be available once I am happy with the setup, which will wait for my longer term testing to be complete.

 

[Avast Marine]

Currently I am feeding the O3 reactor with 300-400 gph.

The following is Escobal's calculation to determine what "ideal" flow rate through the reactor is:

24=9.2*125

24=time in hours pump is running
9.2= 99.99% of water filtered
125= system volume

****47.91GPH****

A very important factor in ozone reactor usage is contact time. The faster the water runs through the reactor the less dwell time you have.

 

[Avast Marine]

I was able to drop the dial on the ozone generator from 100mg/hr to 50mg/hr and saw an increase in ORP in my tank. At 125gal system volume I am at .4mg/hr per gallon and running 320 orp at peak.

MY calculation to determine ozone dosage per system volume, it is based off years of testing on multiple tanks of all sizes in many locations and it is simply based on the above equation:

F=O

F= Feed rate of water through reactor
O= Ozone in mg

***47.91mg/hr***

Seems pretty close to what your at now. Slowing the flow through the reactor wont change the dosage but it will be far more effective. It is going to seem like a trickle, but it will increase the effectiveness of the reactor.

 

[jrpark22000]

****47.91GPH****
A very important factor in ozone reactor usage is contact time. The faster the water runs through the reactor the less dwell time you have.

Agreed, contact time is key. Should the reactor's design be taken into consideration in the equation as well? Given any reactor should there not be diminishing net effect on either too much or too little flow?
With my setup I will be using tank ORP a measure of efficiency. I’m still setting a system baseline so I cannot make any changes yet. I will be looking at flow rate, ozone mg/hr, internal reactor pressure, and air scfm as variables. Each parameter will in turn get tweaked and compared to baseline. I would be surprised if such a low flow rate would be optimal, but I will be testing and confirm. My end result will be to dose as little mg/hr of ozone as possible with the highest tank ORP, not to exceed 350 initially.

 

[jrpark22000]

Update; My baseline appears corrupt. My ORP probe looks to be flaking out on me. I get to start over once I receive the new probe and let it settle in for a few weeks.

So far I do had what looked like good results, but I can no longer use any of it. Back to square one.

 

[EnderG60]

Boomer, this is the one I was talking about. Would you mind sketching up a quick diagram of how exactly this works.

and what exactly would you change?

This is mine, the early version:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not think Boomer is participating in RC at the moment.

 

[EnderG60]

well poopie, can anyone sketch up a diagram on how that reactor is supposed to work.

This thread is full of text descriptions and pics of the actual reactors, but Im still not sure how exactly they are supposed to work.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'll see if he can PM you.

 

[EnderG60]

thanks, it seems simple enough but I just cant visualize whats going on inside and how it maintains pressure.

 

[jrpark22000]

Now that my experiment has been going on for some time I have a question for anyone who has or does run Ozone.

How often did you have to change your GAC and what indicator did/do you use? Earlier in this thread it is stated carbon should last 3-4 weeks.

I am dosing 50mg/hr or less with a total water volume of about 125gal, .4mg/gal or less. The avast ozone reactor does not have a separate air and effluent output so I filter both through the same GAC canister. I add 2 cups of GAC in a jumbo GAC canister. At the end of 2 weeks I can smell ozone when I open my cabinet doors. My effluent output enters the sump in my cabinet and I do run fans providing positive airflow through the cabinet. When I let it go 3 weeks, the ozone starts to break down the GAC and I get black carbon film showing up in my skimmer. Also the ozone is strong enough to be smelled throughout the fish room. There is no tumble to my GAC, I kept the bed compacted tight and estimate my current flow at 400-500 gph. My daily ORP is between 315 and 335, the system ran at about 280 ORP before the ozone addition. My water is crystal clear with monthly water changes so I don't plan on raising it more. I only run the one GAC canister, I add no other carbon source to my tank.

Buying bulk I am estimating about $2.22 a week in GAC if I change at 2 weeks. Which is not expensive in comparison to everything else, but higher than my initial estimate by 50%. Originally I was thinking 3 weeks would suffice. I have tried varying the amount of GAC from 1-3 cups and it does not seem to make much difference. 14-17 days after I change GAC I start smelling ozone inside the cabinet.


reporting back with results

I have the new ORP probe installed and calibrated. I left the old probe installed for comparison. The old probe is fairly accurate, but it's swings are greater and more sudden. I will continue to use my previous baseline and continue tweaking variables to improve efficiency. First I want to continue turning back the flow through the ozone reactor monitoring the results. I am filling the air dryer about every 7-9 days. With the 13lbs on hand, I have yet to exhaust my first dried batch. I should only need to dry once every 8 weeks. The bacteria bloom has completely subsided resulting in a more stable ORP reading. The reactor internal pressure floats between 2.75 and 3.15 PSI.

 

[billsreef]

With enough ozone to be smelling it, and exhausting GAC that quickly, you are using more than is needed. I'd turn the ozone down to the point that your not smelling it. It gets used pretty rapidly, so hitting that balance point of not smelling it should work well for your water quality, with the carbon just being a safety net.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

GAC used in the air vents lasts a very long time, and as Bill mentioned, smell is a good way to judge.

Earlier in this thread it is stated carbon should last 3-4 weeks.

That is presumably GAC used in binding organic matter, not ozone. The GAC used to break down ozone in air or high oxidizing species in ozonated seawater lasts far longer. Many months or longer. Maybe years. Little collects on it as the ozone and oxidizing species will break them down.

 

[jrpark22000]

Ok, let me clarify a little on the avast design. As the avast ozone reactor is designed differently and does not have a burp tube, the effluent and ozone enriched air must pass through a single carbon reactor for neutralization.

With enough ozone to be smelling it, and exhausting GAC that quickly, you are using more than is needed. I'd turn the ozone down to the point that your not smelling it. It gets used pretty rapidly, so hitting that balance point of not smelling it should work well for your water quality, with the carbon just being a safety net.

I am not sure I follow you. Are you only referring to the carbon over a burp tube? The avast does not use a burp tube to regulate reactor pressure. The design of this avast reactor is discussed in the above posts.

At .4mg/hr/gal I am dosing a high rate? Isn't it a median dosing amount for home aquaria?

GAC used in the air vents lasts a very long time, and as Bill mentioned, smell is a good way to judge.

It sounds like you are referring to the burp tube carbon.

That is presumably GAC used in binding organic matter, not ozone.

Ok.

The GAC used to break down ozone in air or high oxidizing species in ozonated seawater lasts far longer. Many months or longer. Maybe years. Little collects on it as the ozone and oxidizing species will break them down.

I thought the purpose of the GAC used in the effluent output is neutralizing the bromine bleach (hypobromous acid) from the ozone generator. Does this conversion or the effect of the acid break down the GAC? If so, any idea at which rate?

It was stated that ozone breaks down the binding agent in ROX which would explain my results at 3 weeks, but again it appears sooner than I expected. I wonder how much affect this breakup is having on the carbon effectiveness, if any.