Pete's 110 build
- Thread starter psteeleb
- Start date
psteeleb
Team RC
psteeleb
Team RC
Nitrates seem to be hanging about 1-2ppm. I'll see how the corals do but I'm not real happy about using the bio-pellets, as my corals just don’t look as healthy as they did prior to running them. I guess they strip out too many nutrients and are making my corals look pale and in some cases the coral skin seems to be thinning and even pealing. The worse one so far is the Montepora Undata. There are only a couple that seem to be affected and I'm not sure if its the current level of nutrients or the drop in nutrients that hurt the corals, so much too learn and so little time.
anyway here's some more eye candy for the night
you can see on the edge of the monte there seems to be some burned tissue where it's growing
anyway here's some more eye candy for the night
you can see on the edge of the monte there seems to be some burned tissue where it's growing
iwishtofish
Active member
Are you unhappy about the nitrates existing at all, or are you beginning to wonder if your corals would benefit from them being a bit higher again?
Wonderful photos, as always, btw.
Wonderful photos, as always, btw.
psteeleb
Team RC
The short answer is yes, I do think they benefit from some nitrates. To the extent I may decide to ditch the bio pellets as I'm not convinced they are the best solution to the problem.
I don't have all the answers and I wish I took more N03 readings as they built up to say x# or below is okay and x# and above is not (at least for my reef as I’m sure results vary).
Where the issue started is hard to say, but what I can say is my corals, as a whole looked much better pre bio pellets then after bio pellets, with few exceptions like the gorgs. Therefore, the bigger question is it a No3 issue or something else? I believe it's both but we may not give enough credit to the later, so solution I'm faced with are the bio pellets pulling out more then No3 (and Po4) or is it a residual from their consumption. I think the consensus is the latter but in the long run it may not matter.
To start - I think I’ll reroute the bio pellet effluent run to the skimmer as others suggest. This action in it self may prove that the residuals are the culprit but it may prove nothing. If that doesn't work I will either significantly reduce, if not ditch, the bio pellets all together.
Here’s my cut on No3 (and other residuals like Po4) from bacteria consumption. First and foremost the biological system (aka reef tank) should be built to be as natural as possible for many reasons beyond just this one subject. With that in mind consider No3 as excess rather then a by-product, in other words the system (with its aerobic, anaerobic, sponges, macro algae etc) may be handling 95% of the No3 and we only detect the last 5%. But that 5% left unconsumed naturally grows every day and we get elevated readings.
My thought goes back to the start of this elevated No3 issue and what caused or contributed to it. Although there are other contributors I attribute a significant one as being the changing out of a very slow flow GFO reactor that was harboring a nice anaerobic bacteria culture that dealt with that 5% (fictitious number but represents a share of the total consumption the system as a whole handled.)
So, I went on a campaign to reduce Nitrates.
Recently the easy way to deal with excess No3 is to skip over the natural consumption of No3 by culturing anaerobic bacteria (e.g. DSB’s, criptic zones etc due to the difficulties associated with them) by supercharging aerobic bacteria beyond its natural level. We do this by introducing a carbon source. Sounds good so far, but bacteria are the most effective and fastest growing life form on the face of the planet, after all, a few cells can become millions in a mater of days (and vice versa when as they die). Add to this, bacteria are not picky about 5% and are actually greedy to the point that they will stave out other consumers. The starving is going on before we see a noticeable drop, and the larger the systems capacity compared to excess (sample 95/5) the more starving happens. Think of them as equal opportunity consumers, they just don’t care. We know this to be true as we see algae’s starve out (probably the second fastest growing life form) and we are suspecting the same for corals.
I only bring up the ratios as all tanks are different, younger tanks that start with bio pellets may never give the system a chance of naturally handling No3 (and Po4). This may be perfectly fine in a ultra low nutrient (ULN) system, but won’t suffice for corals that best respond to higher nutrient systems like gorgs, other NPS, and selected SPS that either consume No3, or are other wise affected by the introduction of bio pellets (like my Montepora Unduta).
Sorry to get so long winded but there seem to be a lot of questions around this issue and I’m just learning and sharing my experiences so others may add to there knowledge base.
Undata prior to bio pellets
post introduction of bio pellets
psteeleb
Team RC
Thanks Longatto
Although the bio pellets work as advertised in reduction of No3 there are side issues that have me still on the fence. I suspect in the long run I may still use them but at a reduced rate and more of a supplement then a solution
psteeleb
Team RC
a couple more pictures of mesenterial filaments ( a digestive reaction ) not to be confused with sweepers
not hard to find on this mille
not so easy to find on this one
but this shows them a little beter
and a write up from NOAA on coral competition including sweepers and mesenterial filiments
Competitive Methods
Indirect encounters between corals are considered competitive strategies to compete for space and most often involve overtopping. This method is primarily utilized by fast-growing branching species. Without directly interacting with neighboring colonies, a branching species can outcompete its stout, slow-growing neighbors by virtue of its upright, faster growth rate. The underlying corals suffer light deficiency, affecting the ability of their zooxanthellae to conduct photosynthesis, and also causing the underlying coral to come into contact with fewer food particles. Over time, overtopping by fast-growing species can kill the slower-growing species underneath.
Aggressive Methods
To survive and thrive in a space-limited environment, some corals have developed several specialized mechanisms for direct interaction for self-preservation and competition with other corals and other organisms for space in an ecosystem. The most common aggressive mechanisms include sweeper tentacles (detect and damage adjacent coral colonies), mesenterial filaments (enabling external digestion of neighboring colonies), and terpenoid compounds (coral chemical warfare). [d] These methods are not necessarily mutually exclusive as some species of corals employ each of these mechanisms in concert to prevent losing their space on the reef. [e] It has been estimated that, on the reef, between 22 and 38 percent of all coral colonies are engaged in battle or are within range to engage. [f]
Sweeper Tentacles
Sweeper tentacles are the most common defense mechanisms in the hard corals, and also occur in some soft corals. Specialized stinging cells called nematocysts are present in these tentacles and can attack a competing coral and literally burn it to the point of either killing it or severely damaging it. The length of these sweeper tentacles is not correlated to the length of the normal coral polyp and may, in fact, be many times longer. [e] Sweeper tentacles are also utilized by some species to detect adjacent coral colonies that are encroaching on it.
Mesenterial Filaments
In addition to sweeper tentacles, several hard coral species can produce mesenterial filaments from their stomachs (corals of the genera Favia, Favites, Scolymia, Pavona, and Cynarina all have this capacity). [g] These filaments can kill or devour other coral polyps through a process similar to digestion. Some corals even have the capacity to produce both sweeper tentacles and mesenterial filaments, enabling them to fight a battle on several fronts. [e]
Terpenoid Compounds
Soft corals generally compete with the hard corals by conducting chemical warfare; they release terpenoid or sarcophine compounds into the water to injure or impede the growth of neighboring corals. Like their name implies, these compounds are similar to turpentine in chemical structure and in most instances, are just as toxic. These chemicals also prevent other unwanted organisms from settling on or near the corals that produce them. [e] By releasing these compounds, the soft coral injures neighboring stony corals and can thus grow above them, eventually blocking out the light that they are both dependent upon and thereby killing the underlying hard coral. The process of influencing the growth and development of other organisms through use of chemical compounds is called 'allelopathy.' [h] Like their name implies, these compounds are similar to turpentine in chemical structure and in most instances, are just as toxic. These chemicals also prevent other unwanted organisms from settling on or near the corals that produce them.
not hard to find on this mille
not so easy to find on this one
but this shows them a little beter
and a write up from NOAA on coral competition including sweepers and mesenterial filiments
Competitive Methods
Indirect encounters between corals are considered competitive strategies to compete for space and most often involve overtopping. This method is primarily utilized by fast-growing branching species. Without directly interacting with neighboring colonies, a branching species can outcompete its stout, slow-growing neighbors by virtue of its upright, faster growth rate. The underlying corals suffer light deficiency, affecting the ability of their zooxanthellae to conduct photosynthesis, and also causing the underlying coral to come into contact with fewer food particles. Over time, overtopping by fast-growing species can kill the slower-growing species underneath.
Aggressive Methods
To survive and thrive in a space-limited environment, some corals have developed several specialized mechanisms for direct interaction for self-preservation and competition with other corals and other organisms for space in an ecosystem. The most common aggressive mechanisms include sweeper tentacles (detect and damage adjacent coral colonies), mesenterial filaments (enabling external digestion of neighboring colonies), and terpenoid compounds (coral chemical warfare). [d] These methods are not necessarily mutually exclusive as some species of corals employ each of these mechanisms in concert to prevent losing their space on the reef. [e] It has been estimated that, on the reef, between 22 and 38 percent of all coral colonies are engaged in battle or are within range to engage. [f]
Sweeper Tentacles
Sweeper tentacles are the most common defense mechanisms in the hard corals, and also occur in some soft corals. Specialized stinging cells called nematocysts are present in these tentacles and can attack a competing coral and literally burn it to the point of either killing it or severely damaging it. The length of these sweeper tentacles is not correlated to the length of the normal coral polyp and may, in fact, be many times longer. [e] Sweeper tentacles are also utilized by some species to detect adjacent coral colonies that are encroaching on it.
Mesenterial Filaments
In addition to sweeper tentacles, several hard coral species can produce mesenterial filaments from their stomachs (corals of the genera Favia, Favites, Scolymia, Pavona, and Cynarina all have this capacity). [g] These filaments can kill or devour other coral polyps through a process similar to digestion. Some corals even have the capacity to produce both sweeper tentacles and mesenterial filaments, enabling them to fight a battle on several fronts. [e]
Terpenoid Compounds
Soft corals generally compete with the hard corals by conducting chemical warfare; they release terpenoid or sarcophine compounds into the water to injure or impede the growth of neighboring corals. Like their name implies, these compounds are similar to turpentine in chemical structure and in most instances, are just as toxic. These chemicals also prevent other unwanted organisms from settling on or near the corals that produce them. [e] By releasing these compounds, the soft coral injures neighboring stony corals and can thus grow above them, eventually blocking out the light that they are both dependent upon and thereby killing the underlying hard coral. The process of influencing the growth and development of other organisms through use of chemical compounds is called 'allelopathy.' [h] Like their name implies, these compounds are similar to turpentine in chemical structure and in most instances, are just as toxic. These chemicals also prevent other unwanted organisms from settling on or near the corals that produce them.
psteeleb
Team RC
thanks
the lights are a blend of LED's and T5's. Most of my pictures are taken with just the T5's on (a 2/1 mix of royal blues and cool whites)
here's the line up, left to right in the picture
12 3w Royal Blues
9 3w Royal Blues with 9 3w Cool Whites
T5 12k
T5 Actinic
T5 Fiji Purple
T5 12k
9 3w Royal Blues with 9 3w Cool Whites
12 3w Royal Blues
iwishtofish
Active member
Very interesting theories Pete, regarding nitrates and biopellets. I don't yet test for nitrates, although I know I soon will (perhaps I'll pick up a kit today). My corals are finally starting to come around nicely. I have film algae that grows on the glass, and that is all, but I know I have detectable phosphates and nitrates. I have some older GFO still running at a slow rate in the reactor, and I was just planning on taking it offline while I try to decide whether to refresh it. Now you have me wondering what will happen with my nitrates when when I do remove that GFO biofilter, lol.
I love your light setup.
I love your light setup.
frankpayne32
New member
Man Pete, you are one hell of a photographer.
BigCountry74
New member
marcin11379
New member
I'm amazed with your blog and your beautiful reef.I got 180 gal. SPS tank and use Zeo, know I just added Biopallets and some of corals start losing tissues and die. I use 500ml Vertex Biopallets.
drummereef
Team RC
I noticed in a previous video your pellets were tumbling relatively fast. Do you think this has any effect, along with your reactor not being plumbed directly to your skimmer, for some of the coral issues you've seen? Some people have said the faster the pellets tumble the more aggressive the pellets can strip the water. That and possibly the excess sloughing of bacteria that would end up in the display as a bi-product. The recirculating reactors look very interesting to me and perhaps with your mad DIY skills you'd be able to mod the reactor you have, but the idea of being able to contain the bacteria inside the reactor and controlling the rate of effluent seems like a good idea. Just some thoughts...
psteeleb
Team RC
As long as your running a slow flow GFO I would think your Po4 will remain in check. No3 usually isn't an issue unless it gets real high but as long as you don't over feed and stay on top of water changes you are probably okay. Macro algea, DSb and live rock always help also.
As for changin out the GFO, I wouldn't worry about it unless you get elevated P04 readings.
thanks Frank
thanksX2
Pics never cease to amaze me.
I'll keep posting how things are going but I'm finding more and more people experiance the same tissue damage. I'm still learning and getting some good information form others on this and my local forum.
I did relocate my bio pellet effluent to the skimmer area but need to add some longer tubing and make a tee fitting like you did for your system. I also need to incorporate my recirc mod on the skimmer, I bought the parts but just need to take the skimmer apart and get after it.
Interseting, a recirc mod on the bio pellet reactor (not even realy a mod) sounds like it may be in the near future. A set of tees and a MJ pump should do the trick just fine. I like it
thanks
psteeleb
Team RC
FTS video
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