No offense taken sir.
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Stay safe my friend.
Mucho
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Stay safe my friend.
Mucho
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Pimpin' Ain't Easy
- Thread starter capture
- Start date
Jeff
Premium Member
Thanks a lot. BTW, your tank is an inspiration. I own a bunch of fancy equipment but have always been unable to make sps thrive so I kind of gave up and just worry about the softies and few lps corals that "make it". Its probably my low ph problem but your tank proves that softie tanks can rule the world!
Your check is in the mail for that Geo, LOL.
Thanks
Thanks
I have to reinforce Mucho's marketing statements...
I used to work in a jewelry store and there was a catalog that came out at the end of last year. It had "2008's hot colors." The catalog gave the seasons hottest colors for throughout the year? How did they know those would be the hot colors? because that was what they would be pushing. Since they were a leading supplier of jewelry, supplies, etc... they set the market. They had enough influence that people will just believe them. Whatever you push as a salesperson sells... just like whatever you tell people, if you tell them enough, they will believe.
Every online supplier is selling by the polyp... as a consumer there is no way to turn this around until a majority realizes that this is wrong. The vendors are going to keep convincing more people that "zoas are meant to be sold per polyp." Even as a hobbiest that is a good person and sells frags for good prices, you will not help turn things around. You will just be considered a nice person, or maybe even naive.
From the above examples, I feel the worst thing is people that take advantage of the nice guys.
I am currently trying to grow out all my frags into larger colonies... as soon as my rocks begin to overgrow, I do not know what I will do. I am torn on what I should charge for frags. I would love to sell cheap frags to help people out, but at the same time it makes me sick to think of people taking advantage of them. I just heard a story the other day about somebody buying cheap corals at a frag swap and reselling them for a "nice profit." I am considering selling at a local swap in the near future but would really only be interested in selling my "common" frags for $5. If I saw these for resale that day or later i could see myself not selling to an individual for a long time. At least if you trade in coral for credit you realize that you are "wholesaling."
o well... that was kind of a ramble but hopefully it will get some more people to chime in
I used to work in a jewelry store and there was a catalog that came out at the end of last year. It had "2008's hot colors." The catalog gave the seasons hottest colors for throughout the year? How did they know those would be the hot colors? because that was what they would be pushing. Since they were a leading supplier of jewelry, supplies, etc... they set the market. They had enough influence that people will just believe them. Whatever you push as a salesperson sells... just like whatever you tell people, if you tell them enough, they will believe.
Every online supplier is selling by the polyp... as a consumer there is no way to turn this around until a majority realizes that this is wrong. The vendors are going to keep convincing more people that "zoas are meant to be sold per polyp." Even as a hobbiest that is a good person and sells frags for good prices, you will not help turn things around. You will just be considered a nice person, or maybe even naive.
From the above examples, I feel the worst thing is people that take advantage of the nice guys.
I am currently trying to grow out all my frags into larger colonies... as soon as my rocks begin to overgrow, I do not know what I will do. I am torn on what I should charge for frags. I would love to sell cheap frags to help people out, but at the same time it makes me sick to think of people taking advantage of them. I just heard a story the other day about somebody buying cheap corals at a frag swap and reselling them for a "nice profit." I am considering selling at a local swap in the near future but would really only be interested in selling my "common" frags for $5. If I saw these for resale that day or later i could see myself not selling to an individual for a long time. At least if you trade in coral for credit you realize that you are "wholesaling."
o well... that was kind of a ramble but hopefully it will get some more people to chime in
Pufferpunk
New member
I'd love to be at THAT swap! 
Jeff
Premium Member
capture, thanks for checking back, I think we actually made some headway in understanding that single polyp trading has a useful and responsible place in the hobby. You addressed your last post to me so I will answer your concerns as best as possible.
You said--> "Tell me this, what or who would it hurt if you left that single polyp in a frag tank a few more weeks to grow a few more heads"
The reason is that people would rather not wait for their few more heads or could afford more heads. Most people would rather get a single polyp in their tanks today reahter then waiting a few weeks. I have done a lot of trading over the years and have found that that is the case in almost every situation. have you found otherwise in your trading?
As far as your statement about the difference between collectable cars and corals that are constantly reproducing and never creating a shortage, I completely have to disagree. There is a shortage of certain corals in this hobby and thus makes certain corals rare and more desirable and thus more expensive. Single polyp trading among friends protects the species as well as affording more people the oppertunatly to enjoy viewing and propagating the rare corals. "Going out and finding more" isnt always possible and is definatly not a responsible way of reefkeeping. Proagation and aquacultering is the most responsible way.
I hope you can see my point. I feel strongly that any kind of trading, even single polyp trading is the way to keep this hobby going. They are working on making coral collection illegal off of Hawaii or at least limiting coral collection. Dont you think that trading tank raised corals is better then poaching?
You said--> "Tell me this, what or who would it hurt if you left that single polyp in a frag tank a few more weeks to grow a few more heads"
The reason is that people would rather not wait for their few more heads or could afford more heads. Most people would rather get a single polyp in their tanks today reahter then waiting a few weeks. I have done a lot of trading over the years and have found that that is the case in almost every situation. have you found otherwise in your trading?
As far as your statement about the difference between collectable cars and corals that are constantly reproducing and never creating a shortage, I completely have to disagree. There is a shortage of certain corals in this hobby and thus makes certain corals rare and more desirable and thus more expensive. Single polyp trading among friends protects the species as well as affording more people the oppertunatly to enjoy viewing and propagating the rare corals. "Going out and finding more" isnt always possible and is definatly not a responsible way of reefkeeping. Proagation and aquacultering is the most responsible way.
I hope you can see my point. I feel strongly that any kind of trading, even single polyp trading is the way to keep this hobby going. They are working on making coral collection illegal off of Hawaii or at least limiting coral collection. Dont you think that trading tank raised corals is better then poaching?
The thing is that if people dont offer to sell until there are more than one head, then people will be able to have the frags in their tank today but they will have multiple heads. I also think the survival rate of multiple polyp frags is way higher than single polyp frags.
I agree that any kind of trading is good but if you have grown a polyp from a single head to a frag why not wait for the 10 polyps to produce 3 or 4 heads more instead of fragging the 10 polyps to 9 and waiting for the main frag to repair and the single polyp to repair? I have found that larger frags reproduce faster than single polyps. I have also found that fragging can encourage growth on the main colony. When you frag down a 5 head to single polyps I believe you lose all of the above benefits (better growth, better survival rate).
I agree that any kind of trading is good but if you have grown a polyp from a single head to a frag why not wait for the 10 polyps to produce 3 or 4 heads more instead of fragging the 10 polyps to 9 and waiting for the main frag to repair and the single polyp to repair? I have found that larger frags reproduce faster than single polyps. I have also found that fragging can encourage growth on the main colony. When you frag down a 5 head to single polyps I believe you lose all of the above benefits (better growth, better survival rate).
Jeff
Premium Member
I dont get your point. Of course $20 for 6-8 polyps is a better deal then $10 for one. We arent talking about good or bad deals.
kawicivic, I havent found that single polyps are less likely to survive then multiples. Seriously, it doesnt matter in my experience. Come over to my house and I will give you a single polyp frag and a multiple polyp frag and you will see.
I just reread my post on page 2, and I wanted to clarify something. "I think trading is great, whether it is 1 polyp or 10", My point in general was that trading is good for the hobby, but I am not fond of 1 polyp trading, that is simply rushing it. A polyp is not a frag, it's a polyp.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
jessp
New member
Is there any scientific evidence that one polyp would have a higher survival rate than 3-5? I don't think that they depend on each other for survival even though they grow into a colony. In fact I think certain types of palys grow better when thinned out. to a polyp. No light is shaded out from the babies growing at the base of the polyp and they can take full use of the light.
Jeff
Premium Member
I doubt that there is any scientific evidence either way. I have had many observations over the years and the only time I see softies grow faster then normal is after cutting some out of the colony I get fast re-growth. It doesnt matter if there is one or 10 they grow just as fast and spread as fast. I did get a lot of new growth in my tank especially on the more rare ones after starting to dose vitamin C.
There is no documented scientific data that I am aware of, I'm sure it is personal observation only. Zoanthids and Palythoas are basically the Hulk Hogan corals of the sea. It takes a lot to kill them unless you have a predator consuming them. They can tolerate cold better than heat. Stress is a major factor which can lead to a host of issues while polyps are in transit. I don't know the exact year, I'm thinking 10 to 12 years ago I'm guessing, when I started shipping zoas and palys, it dawn on me what was good and what was bad. I found that cutting and shipping on the same day was a major mistake. I had no scientific data, but from personal observation and feedback, the cut/ship method, on the same day of shipping, most always lead to mortality upon arrival. Stress was my assumption, handling, cutting, gluing, packing, shipping, tumbling, in the dark, pressurized cargo hole, unloading, more tumbling, still dark, on a conveyor, on a truck, still tumbling, warmer/colder climate, unloading, delivery, unpacking, an entirely new environment ( temp, alk, cal, ph etc), different lighting scheme and acclimation. All of this in less than 24 hrs. Stress can lead to BI, does it happen all the time, no, can it happen, yes, I've seen it many times. I know a lot of people cut/ship the same day, and do so successfully, but with the high cost of these polyps now, I would specifically ask sellers to cut and hold for a week before shipping.
"In fact I think certain types of palys grow better when thinned out. to a polyp."
I always come to RC to listen, share and learn as we all have something to contribute. I've never noticed what you stated above. It could very well be true if you have witnessed it. I tend to revert back to what is most natural to them. I spoke with a store owner, whom is on very good terms with one of his wholesalers and his trans-shipper. I remember vividly the story he told me a year or two ago. The divers were out looking for zoanthids and palys. They came upon a steep slope, a slope full of some of the most stunning colors they had ever witnessed. It was carpeted with colors, I mean yards of solid growth. When I hear of cutting from the center of a colony and growth is greatly accelerated, I think of that slope full of color. A slope that was never cut or harvested from, yet the growth was fanned out is all directions. I, just me, have always placed smaller rubble rock around he edge of my colonies and allowed a natural migration to the smaller rock, then I would remove and glue the rock, not the polyp to a larger pitted rock. The mother colony was never disturbed. In fact, the moving around of a colony has been proven to in fact stunt growth. This can't be dispelled as I and many other here have proven this over and over again.
I, just me, and I force it on no one, believe that multiple polyp shipping, which is a frag that has been allowed to settle down and begin to show stability and new growth, is much better for the overall survival and prosperity for the frag which is what should be our number one priority.
I know I know, too much info again Mucho. LOL, sorry.
Just my 2 cents.
Mucho
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jessp
New member
I don't know where cutting and shipping same day came from, but i agree this is a poor practice.
Yeah a large patch of reef that looks beautiful is cool and natural. However again i'm not sure what that has to do w/ the survivability of a one polyp frag? A single polyp can be settled in on a piece of rubble for easily a month before it takes off.
There are many ways to skin a cat, many frag your way and it works, many frag other ways and it works.
Yeah a large patch of reef that looks beautiful is cool and natural. However again i'm not sure what that has to do w/ the survivability of a one polyp frag? A single polyp can be settled in on a piece of rubble for easily a month before it takes off.
There are many ways to skin a cat, many frag your way and it works, many frag other ways and it works.
"Yeah a large patch of reef that looks beautiful is cool and natural. However again i'm not sure what that has to do w/ the survivability of a one polyp frag? A single polyp can be settled in on a piece of rubble for easily a month before it takes off."
My point was this, corals thrive natural in the ocean without thinning out the colony. I'm not saying one shouldn't thin, I'm only saying they grow just as fast without thinning. Maybe I should say this, I have never seen an increase in growth, spreading or expansion in MY tank as a result of thinning out a colony and my growth is steady. It could very well happen in someone else's tank, and that's great.
"There are many ways to skin a cat, many frag your way and it works, many frag other ways and it works."
It really isn't my way, it's just A way. You and I both know that there are many ways of accomplishing the same results in reefing.
I just hope now that we can get that poll of the month thread going, LOL.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1309821
How's the weather in Miami BTW. I'm heading that way soon. Got my fingers crossed on the weather, LOL.
Sorry Capture, I took your thread off topic for a second.
My point was this, corals thrive natural in the ocean without thinning out the colony. I'm not saying one shouldn't thin, I'm only saying they grow just as fast without thinning. Maybe I should say this, I have never seen an increase in growth, spreading or expansion in MY tank as a result of thinning out a colony and my growth is steady. It could very well happen in someone else's tank, and that's great.
"There are many ways to skin a cat, many frag your way and it works, many frag other ways and it works."
It really isn't my way, it's just A way. You and I both know that there are many ways of accomplishing the same results in reefing.
I just hope now that we can get that poll of the month thread going, LOL.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1309821
How's the weather in Miami BTW. I'm heading that way soon. Got my fingers crossed on the weather, LOL.
Sorry Capture, I took your thread off topic for a second.
As I was typing up some comments for POTM I realized another observation of single polyps....
many times I cannot get single polyps to accept food. They are a lot quicker to close than a colony. Once a frag hits 8-10 polyps I usually know if I can get them to accept food. Right now I cannot get my single polyp nuclear green frag to eat... but since I have some vary similar, slightly less green protopalys that eat, I would guess once the nuclears have a chance to grow out they will eat. I am a big feeder of all my corals and am a true believer that the food increases growth. Just another nickel of information to discuss.
many times I cannot get single polyps to accept food. They are a lot quicker to close than a colony. Once a frag hits 8-10 polyps I usually know if I can get them to accept food. Right now I cannot get my single polyp nuclear green frag to eat... but since I have some vary similar, slightly less green protopalys that eat, I would guess once the nuclears have a chance to grow out they will eat. I am a big feeder of all my corals and am a true believer that the food increases growth. Just another nickel of information to discuss.
