Please explain "Immunity" in regards to ich

[billsreef]

Reef Frog,

For Question number 1, it is often a combination of direct physical damage (especially to the gills) and secondary infection as result of that physical damage.

Question number 2,

IIRC it was one of Colorni's papers that noted a given strain would die out after 11 generations without any fresh genes being brought into the gene pool.

 

[Paul B]

Bill, I knew I could count on you to wake up. I just love these little talks, don't you?
I am jealous as now I have to go out and although we are now having a heat wave, it is 20 degrees out. Take it easy Bill. :wave:

(I hole some peiople realize that although Bill and I don't agree, we never argue)

 

[billsreef]

Paul,

If it makes you feel any better, it's cloudy today and supposed to be rain showers off and on all day. Only supposed to get up to mid 70's...brrrr

 

[hart24601]

It sounds like ich immunity is pretty well established in the literature. What is the debate about? How long it lasts? Heck, in this paper they even inactivate the ich and inject it and it provides good protection. It was probably already linked, so I apologize for that, but the titles are not listed on the links. The results look pretty good.

Seven days after the challenge, the protection rates of the PBS control, Adjuvant control, Vaccine I, and Vaccine II groups were 0, 10%, 40%, and 80% respectively.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1050464812004780

Abstract:
"In order to elucidate the immune-protective mechanisms of inactivated Cryptocaryon irritans vaccine, different doses of C. irritans theronts were used to immunize orange-spotted grouper (Epinephelus coioides). We measured serum immobilization titer, blood leukocyte respiratory burst activity, serum alternative complement activity, and serum lysozyme activity weekly. In addition, the expression levels of immune-related genes such as interleukin-1β (IL-1β), tumor necrosis factor-α (TNF-α), major histocompatibility complexes I and II (MHC I and II), and transforming growth factor-β1 (TGF-β1) were determined in spleen and gills. The results showed that the immobilization titer, respiratory burst activity, and alternative complement activity of immunized fish were significantly increased, and the levels of the last two immune parameters in the high-dose vaccine group were significantly higher than in the low-dose vaccine group. Serum lysozyme activity in the high-dose vaccine group was significantly higher than in the PBS control group. Vaccination also regulated host immune-related gene expression. For example, at 2- and 3- weeks post immunization, IL-1β expression in the high-dose vaccine group spleen was significantly increased. At 4-weeks post immunization, the fish were challenged with a lethal dose of parasite, and the survival rates of high-dose vaccine group, low-dose vaccine group, PBS control group, and adjuvant control group were 80%, 40%, 0%, and 10% respectively. These results demonstrate that inactivated C. irritans vaccination improves specific and nonspecific immune responses in fish, enhancing their anti-parasite ability. These effects are vaccine antigen dose-dependent."

 

[MondoBongo]

It sounds like ich immunity is pretty well established in the literature. What is the debate about?

a lot of this, in regards to my involvement, actually started in another thread. there was some, shall we say, vigorous disagreement as to whether or not QT worked, if it was worth it, and why you should/should not use a QT protocol. so there's a bit of history here.

then it sort of spiraled out of control from there, with some weird assertions, misunderstandings/conflations of science in general and the specifics of immunity, a strange implicit conspiracy about a fish tank illuminati that are trying to supress "the real truth" about ich (seriously, read the threads), ya know i don't even know anymore. haha.

:deadhorse1:

 

[hart24601]

a lot of this, in regards to my involvement, actually started in another thread. there was some, shall we say, vigorous disagreement as to whether or not QT worked, if it was worth it, and why you should/should not use a QT protocol. so there's a bit of history here.

then it sort of spiraled out of control from there, with some weird assertions, misunderstandings/conflations of science in general and the specifics of immunity, a strange implicit conspiracy about a fish tank illuminati that are trying to supress "the real truth" about ich (seriously, read the threads), ya know i don't even know anymore. haha.

:deadhorse1:

Ah, I see. Thanks!

 

[Savant]

ROFL I thought I was asking a relatively innocuous question but I do think I have found the answers buried among some of the just plain crazy responses.

What I learned from this battle royal:

1) fish probably can develop an immune response to parasites

2) Well established healthy tanks are probably themselves immune or extremely resistant to a conducive environment for the ich parasite

3) Perceived immunity in some tanks could just be the fish are asymptomatic of ich and have not yet reached the level of immunity found in #2

4) Quarantining is probably a good thing for tanks that have not been well established for a number of years

5) and most important of all......never start a thread about Ich Immunity :thumbsup:

I would like to thank everybody that contributed to this thread!

Some of the people who's opinions I respect the most here at RC have lent their opinions and produced facts in this thread. This has definitely allowed me to make better informed decisions about how I think about Ich and how it interacts with fish and aquariums.

And isnt that ^^ the purpose of the forums in the first place :reading:

THANK YOU! :beer:

 

[Paul B]

Only supposed to get up to mid 70's...brrrr

Yes I feel much better now. I have to go out now and buy some more salt, no, not Instant ocean, Calcium Chloride to put on my sidewalk so Dorothy Hammel stops skating back and forth past my house.

 

[ca1ore]

I'm neither a scientist nor a researcher in this field, however, I have had more tanks than most; less than some .... I have observed ich take many different routes on different tanks. In some tanks, regardless of the supposed 'immunity' of my fish, an introduced strain of ich takes hold of most of the fish and requires intervention. In some other tanks, newly introduced fish get symptoms initially, but they go away and do not return.

I know that I have ich in my main display and its been there for at least 18 months. The only two fish that ever show any symptoms are an Achilles (surprise, surprise) and a hippo. None of the other fish show any symptoms, either physical or behavioral. and haven't in that 18 months. I do QT all fish, and when I have introduced new anthias or basslets, they never show any symptoms either. However, if I introduce a new Tang, it will show spots after a few days. In all cases but one, the symptoms go away after a few days, with no subsequent reoccurrence. The only exception was a Naso Tang that also got itself pinned to the side of my MP60. Draw your own conclusions.

So, how to explain my observations? Have I just been fortunate to have a mild strain of ich? Has the ich exhausted itself over I dunno how many generations? Did my fish acquire an immunity? I don't know the answer; I just know what I have observed. I do believe in QT, because there are far worse things out there than ich, and I will continue to run all new fish purchases through my protocol, but you all have to (well, maybe not have to ; ought to ?) admit that there appears to be more to this whole ich thing than perhaps we as yet fully understand.

 

[Paul B]

(well, maybe not have to ; ought to ?) admit that there appears to be more to this whole ich thing than perhaps we as yet fully understand.

Exactly.
(Bill, 6" of snow last night)

 

[MondoBongo]

Is it even ich I think may also be a valid question. Is it possible that a different thing, be it parasite, infection, other, could present similar symptoms as the disease, but be distinct and less/not harmful?

 

[reefgeezer]

is it even ich i think may also be a valid question. Is it possible that a different thing, be it parasite, infection, other, could present similar symptoms as the disease, but be distinct and less/not harmful?

+1...

 

[Mishri]

I wonder if the immunity displayed in large established tanks is linked to the life cycle of ich? Many of the tomites unsuccessfully attempt to feed from an immune fish, so even if you bring something new in it doesn't really have a chance from your super fish that have been bombarded by all sorts of disease and parasites and lived? hmmm..

^ intentionally not using scientific terms to show I'm just speculating possibilities and not trying to find the exact phrasing for what is exactly taking place. I'm not going to analyze it too much.