Prepping a Brute for RO/DI Storage
- Thread starter Ldesp
- Start date
rhdoug
New member
you might wanna check out Eric Borneman's coral forum at marine depot. Here's the link, unless they censor it... http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic101230-9-1.aspx
Moebuis
New member
Well that sucks. I've been using brute cans for years because water tanks are ridiculously expensive. I haven't noticed any problems, but I'd never know if my tank would be better without the brutes.
I wonder why so many people continue to use Brute cans if they are not good. It seem there are tuns of threads of people using them. I do not have my storage containers yet so I guess I can look at other options. I just have to find a site that has water specific continers and that ships internationally to Macau as that is where I live.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
Ldesp, I think the important concept is that "not good" is relative, and unknown. Clearly, they won't instantly wipe out your whole tank. However, from that thread, it seems there is at least some reasonable evidence that they may cause certain specific problems in some animals' reproductive cycles. Will this ever pan out into a problem you'll notice in your tank? Hard to say.
On the verge of building my own large system, and I'm leaning towards glass for the RO/DI and water change vessels. It's not as cheap as Brute containers, but cheaper than some potable water storage options (which might be just as bad as the Brutes, at any rate) and you know it won't cause any problems whatsoever.
On the verge of building my own large system, and I'm leaning towards glass for the RO/DI and water change vessels. It's not as cheap as Brute containers, but cheaper than some potable water storage options (which might be just as bad as the Brutes, at any rate) and you know it won't cause any problems whatsoever.
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC
I agree, but I also see no conclusive evidence to certify that Brutes (or even potable water storage containers) will be totally safe, all the time. They're certainly not designed or certified for use in marine aquaria. Clearly, Brutes appear to work just fine for many reef keepers. But, those folks might not notice the sorts of problems Steve did (reproductive failures.) But, in a complex, closed ecosystem, who knows how this might pan out over the life of your tank.
Again, the thought I keep coming back to is that the price of a few 40 or 55 gallon glass tanks, vs two Brutes, is a drop in the bucket of a tank build, and you know you're getting something pretty much as close as possible to 100% safe. I've used plastic containers for RO storage and saltwater mixing pretty much my entire time in the hobby, and sure - I can't point to a tank crash and blame it on the containers, but the lack of observed symptoms doesn't mean something is totally safe.
Time to go polish my tinfoil hat!
Again, the thought I keep coming back to is that the price of a few 40 or 55 gallon glass tanks, vs two Brutes, is a drop in the bucket of a tank build, and you know you're getting something pretty much as close as possible to 100% safe. I've used plastic containers for RO storage and saltwater mixing pretty much my entire time in the hobby, and sure - I can't point to a tank crash and blame it on the containers, but the lack of observed symptoms doesn't mean something is totally safe.
Time to go polish my tinfoil hat!
lordofthereef
One reef to rule them all
Informative link, but it does pose a question.
Just because something is toxic to sperm, does not mean it is toxic to the organism releasing the sperm. A good example is that light is also toxic to sperm (mammalian, not sure about inverts on this one). Obviously that statement can be used for humans. Surely the average human doesn't find light toxic...
Now I know that the link doesn't claim that these trash cans do anything other than cause reproductive issues. What I am saying, though, is that seeing how most of us don't care about sexual reproduction of the corals in our tanks, if all it does is cause issues to the sperm and not the organism (which we don't know), then using a Brute trashcan can't really be said to be BAD.
Just because something is toxic to sperm, does not mean it is toxic to the organism releasing the sperm. A good example is that light is also toxic to sperm (mammalian, not sure about inverts on this one). Obviously that statement can be used for humans. Surely the average human doesn't find light toxic...
Now I know that the link doesn't claim that these trash cans do anything other than cause reproductive issues. What I am saying, though, is that seeing how most of us don't care about sexual reproduction of the corals in our tanks, if all it does is cause issues to the sperm and not the organism (which we don't know), then using a Brute trashcan can't really be said to be BAD.
lordofthereef
One reef to rule them all
If I read correctly, I think the plastic in these cans are treated with something that is causing this. I would guess that skimmer, and powerheads, at the very least, are not treated this same way.
Hawkdl2
Mad Scientist
Brute cans are made by injection molded using mold release agents that are known to be harmful to humans and other organisms. The FDA only requires that the levels released in a "potable water" container be below certain levels. The fact that a new brute can appears to have caused toxicity to sperm cells is cause for consideration, but not necessarily alarm. What is unknown is how sensitive is EACH organism in our tanks to the lower levels of KNOWN toxins released from Brute cans. It's probably fair to say that many of the organisms we keep are at least somewhat resistant to the toxins.
I do take issue with the common argument "so many people use them they must be safe". After 10 years in the hobby and seeing a lot of people come and go, I can just about count on one hand the number of reef keeprs that have honestly kept SPS tanks healthy for more than a few years with no RTN, bleaching, or other die off - though there are some notables in SoCal. 6 months, 1 year, and even 2 years does not constitute "success". It's a fact that the number of times someone post "I use Brute cans" is about the same as the number of post that state "my SPS are bleaching and I have no idea why".
The white containers sold for water use by US Plastics and other companies use an entirely different manufacturing process that does not involve mold release agents on the insides of the can (they're rotationally molded). These containers are much more likely to be safe for reef use and while they cost well more than a Brute can, are probably a very justified investment.
Also, not all reefers that use Brute cans leave water in them for more than a day or so. Some have argued that it's water left in "new" cans for "longer" periods of time that are more likely to cause problems.
I do take issue with the common argument "so many people use them they must be safe". After 10 years in the hobby and seeing a lot of people come and go, I can just about count on one hand the number of reef keeprs that have honestly kept SPS tanks healthy for more than a few years with no RTN, bleaching, or other die off - though there are some notables in SoCal. 6 months, 1 year, and even 2 years does not constitute "success". It's a fact that the number of times someone post "I use Brute cans" is about the same as the number of post that state "my SPS are bleaching and I have no idea why".
The white containers sold for water use by US Plastics and other companies use an entirely different manufacturing process that does not involve mold release agents on the insides of the can (they're rotationally molded). These containers are much more likely to be safe for reef use and while they cost well more than a Brute can, are probably a very justified investment.
Also, not all reefers that use Brute cans leave water in them for more than a day or so. Some have argued that it's water left in "new" cans for "longer" periods of time that are more likely to cause problems.
sowellj
New member
Unforunately all plastics leech to varying degrees. A few years back during my postdoc, we were having big issues w/interfering peaks showing up in some analysis we were conducting (I am a chemist). Ended up tracing the contaminate back to the polypropylene tubes. What effect these compounds have on our tanks ... who knows?
thanks for all the feedback guys. as per der_wille's suggestion I am actually considering using 2 x 50g glass aquariums now.
Do any of you guys have some suggestions on my stand build for these tanks.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1723756
Do any of you guys have some suggestions on my stand build for these tanks.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1723756
