"Pushing the Window"

[snorvich]

This kind of extravagant care and swimming room is not commercially feasable, but it's what is needed to successfully ship these fish.

I think capture and shipping are binding constraints on many "difficult to keep fish". I know leopard wrasses suffer from this especially but there are others as well.

I love the spotted drums: gorgeous and especially as a juvenile, interesting (my knowledge is not as an aquarist but as a diver/photographer)

 

[djkms]

I think capture and shipping are binding constraints on many "difficult to keep fish". I know leopard wrasses suffer from this especially but there are others as well.

I love the spotted drums: gorgeous and especially as a juvenile, interesting (my knowledge is not as an aquarist but as a diver/photographer)

One of the companies in our area that does aquarium maintenance gets fish shipped to him all the time, Leopard Wrasses being one of them. He claims to be pretty successful with them and he stated to me that he gets them shipped in about 3" of sand so the wrasse can be more relaxed during shipping.

 

[ackee]

Spotted drums are fairly slow swimming, about the same as a large angelfish. They cruise the reefs (and the aquarium) casually searching for something to eat. They are usually bottom feeders, and mine will scoop up sand in its mouth looking for small organisms. They also learn very quickly to grab food out of the water column. Mine loves Hikari 'A' pellets soaked in Selcon above all other things. They also chase and eat very small fish and shrimp, in capitivity and on the reef. They will eat almost anything, with gusto.

Spotted Drums love caves, and really need them to settle down. I have more than 200 pounds of live rock in the 220, arranged into 4 large open ended caves, through which the Drum swims in constantly changing circular patterns. Spotted Drums are very peaceful, except with another Spotted Drum. In an aquarium, two would result in a certain fight to the death. The adults are solitary, except in breeding season, when they will pair up. I've observed them on the reef for many years, all over the Caribbean.

 

[basser1]

I thought I was "pushing the envelope" when I bought my first bluespot jawfish. A lot of what I read about this fish dealt with the dreaded bluespot jawfish disease. But I managed to keep him for over 2 years until my house lost power for a week due to a freak ice storm.

Right now, I'm trying a group of 5 red spot cardinalfish that is supposed to be difficult to keep. But so far after a couple of weeks, all 5 have done well and eating like pigs!

 

[small alien]

Spotted drums are fairly slow swimming, about the same as a large angelfish. They cruise the reefs (and the aquarium) casually searching for something to eat. They are usually bottom feeders, and mine will scoop up sand in its mouth looking for small organisms. They also learn very quickly to grab food out of the water column. Mine loves Hikari 'A' pellets soaked in Selcon above all other things. They also chase and eat very small fish and shrimp, in capitivity and on the reef. They will eat almost anything, with gusto.

Spotted Drums love caves, and really need them to settle down. I have more than 200 pounds of live rock in the 220, arranged into 4 large open ended caves, through which the Drum swims in constantly changing circular patterns. Spotted Drums are very peaceful, except with another Spotted Drum. In an aquarium, two would result in a certain fight to the death. The adults are solitary, except in breeding season, when they will pair up. I've observed them on the reef for many years, all over the Caribbean.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[wayne in norway]

I would tend to agree that collection and handling is a big factor. The best Potters Angels and leopard wrasse I have seen/bought have been straight from hawaii in a bag. The worst have come thro' a wholesalers, which just adds another layer of stress and starvation, let alone leaving them in the LFSfor a week plus to see if they start eating....
I would agree that most small angels aren't hard, but I would also draw the line at aurantia golden angels. They always look terrible.

 

[snorvich]

He claims to be pretty successful with them and he stated to me that he gets them shipped in about 3" of sand so the wrasse can be more relaxed during shipping.

I think that is an excellent idea. The downside to the supplier is shipping weight. But often times leopards arrive with damaged mouths from trying to bury during shipping.

 

[snorvich]

I would agree that most small angels aren't hard, but I would also draw the line at aurantia golden angels. They always look terrible.

For sure. Perhaps this is why the fish has such a delicate reputation? I know Todd has kept one, but I have never tried.

 

[Angel*Fish]

For sure. Perhaps this is why the fish has such a delicate reputation? I know Todd has kept one, but I have never tried.

They stay close to/hidden in the rocks all the time - they're too hard to catch - my sources say that chemicals are always used to catch them. That's not to say you could never ever get one with special circumstances. People like Copps and others have sources.

We probably wouldn't know about their improper collection if no one had ever bought any. But now we know.

 

[huskerreef]

Its always exciting to see qualified people pushing the window with difficult to keep species, without these pioneers a lot of fish would be off the table for our in home enjoyment. On the other side of the coin is the person who keeps these difficult species that lack the skill, education and conscience to do it. I read a thread on one of my local boards where a fairly new to the hobby guy was keeping 4 Regals and a few Morish Idols in his newly set up barebottom tank with limited amount of rock. He coined the term non traditional fishkeeping, argued his point that he had read a lot and despite everything about his set up being wrong, he figured it out and had broke the code to keeping this group of fish. Of course within months, everything was gone, the system was for sale and he was full of excuses. I have been doing this crazy hobby for many years now and still feel like a newbie. I keep a lot of rare wrasses but wouldn't classify any as hard to keep. Thankfully those with the skill set required continue to push the envelope so that the rest of us someday can keep some of these exciting fish with success. I kept a mimic octopus for a short period of time and got a lot of grief over doing so because it was deemed difficult to care for and additionally limited in numbers in the wild. It came into the pet store and I felt i had the skills to give it its best chance, so i brought it home. I got advice from Rich Ross, felt as if I did all that I could but it only lived about 2 weeks. I would not do it again because I feel that maybe its out of my league to try.

 

[small alien]

Thanks for sharing, Jim. Wow, a mimic octopus!

 

[OSTguy]

I have a garibaldi damsel for over a year and a half in temps from 83-68 and a clown tang and powder blue for 2.5 years together. I only do 3 150 gallon water changes a year on a 240 tank. I think I have pushed the window plenty in this hobby.

Please see here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991574

 

[snorvich]

I have a garibaldi damsel for over a year and a half in temps from 83-68 and a clown tang and powder blue for 2.5 years together. I only do 3 150 gallon water changes a year on a 240 tank. I think I have pushed the window plenty in this hobby.

Please see here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1991574

The intent of this thread is to look at keeping traditionally difficult species using new techniques and perhaps better collection and shipping methods. That is why I called it " pushing the window" (as in pushing the window of opportunity for reef keeping).

Using what is considered by many to be less than adequate husbandry of known species is not what the thread is about. If you want to start a thread about that, feel free, but be aware that many of us will not be very supportive of doing things the way you describe.

 

[snorvich]

One other point of clarification. Successful Keeping, in my mind is allowing a fish to live out its natural life in an environment where it will thrive not just survive. Bad husbandry may in the short run allow a fish to survive but it certainly will not thrive.

 

[SDguy]

Nice clarification, Steve. So far, I think I'm most impressed with the continuous live/frozen food dosers for keeping things like tuka anthias, and the, albeit single, success story of someone in Japan keeping corallivore butterflies by feedign them a certain type of clam. While I agree shipping plays a role in many difficult fish, I also think new or novel husbandry techniques are key. I mean, let's face it, tuka anthias and many corallivore butterfliers are shallow, common fish that actually come in very fat/healthy (I've seen them at wholesalers up in LA).

 

[snorvich]

Actually the technique for Tuka anthias with the continuous brine shrimp feeding has inspired me to try and find a way to do the same. I really think there are people out there including you, Matt, Kevin that are doing things we should try and emulate if we can. Again, for me, thriving in our tanks is the goal!

 

[Sheol]

That is another issue with the Centropyge that have reputation's for delicacy. The proper enviroment for them is a reef tank, preferably with a lot of hair algae. But of course, people don't trust them in reefs. And most Reefers hate Hair algae with a burning passion. Yet most of them, if collected properly, and placed in a proper enviroment will do quite well.
And I have heard that Deep water angels also can suffer from improper decompression methods..
Of course, my dream fish as a dedicated Angel nerd is a Regal Angel. Most beautiful Pomacanthid of them all!

Matthew

 

[Toddrtrex]

I have to agree -- all of my dwarfs are in reef tanks, with lots of mature rock. I don't have any visible hair algae, but that could be kept in check by the dwarfs. But, there are other types of algae on the rocks that I see them picking at all day long.

 

[TellyFish]

I have to agree -- all of my dwarfs are in reef tanks, with lots of mature rock. I don't have any visible hair algae, but that could be kept in check by the dwarfs. But, there are other types of algae on the rocks that I see them picking at all day long.

My Potters Angel is certainly a picker-extraordinaire, but after a while he would go nuts for just about any food I put in the tank. Total pig.

Loving this thread... Need Moar! :bounce1:

 

[Angel*Fish]

It's probably some kind of bad husbandry on my part -lol- but I always had diatoms for them. Actually my tank is running again and everything is covered with diatoms right now - no fish yet.