Quarantine time

OK, so 2 weeks ago I was at Pet World/Aqua Shoppe in Greece and saw a pair of Purple Queen Anthias for sale....very rare and very delicate. The sales guy said they were eating....but I was going away on the weekend so I couldn't quarantine and passed on them. Well last week I went back for some food and they were still there! Now I know Pet World quarantines all their fish, then they were on display for a week, now I have had them in quarantine for a week. They are eating....brine and cyclopseeze, but I have a million pod in my DTthat I'm sure they would love. They show NO signs of white spot or disease. What do you think? When can I throw them in the DT where the water quality is MUCH better?

opinions?
 
Purple Queens, eh? I doubt it. Probably tuka. Darn planktivores always need to feed from the water column.

Very difficult to make a recommendation worth anything from here.
I'd have to see 'em. If they looked good and they were my fish I'd introduce them to the DT ASAP.... and feed rather heavily.

Nuthin' in DT that's gonna bother them, is there... You got it covered?
 
You doubt it? They definitely are Pseudanthias tuka...which I thought were Purple Queens...no?

They look really good and even swim around alot....as long as I don't make sudden moves. They look really heathy and not even thin....but I wouldn't call them fat either.

and yep I got it covered. nothing in the tank will bother them...just a mandarin, a trio of clowns, and one Red Sea butterfly....but the water column is alive with tiny pods from my ATS, so I thought they would benefit from the DT. Should I put them in tomorrow?
 
You "might" be "ok"... BUT you have to ask yourself, is it worth it or not?
Just my advice I'd say NO. Don't do it.

Keep them in Quarantine for at least a month solid.
Keep them eating good.. watch the water conditions of course.
If they show no signs of anything bad, then don't treat in any way.
But keep them in the QT for at least a month. In Your "own" QT that is.
Not counting the time they spent in the fish store.

Ich has many life cycles. It can appear to be No Where. Then appear in 2 or 3 weeks etc.. It's possible. I would not risk anything. Most of us have learned at one point or another. It's like playing russian roulette. Sometimes you get lucky. (Some people even get lucky several different times) Then one bites you hard. Not worth it. Have patience. Do it right- by the book.

But this is just my advice. It's your choice and Qting a fish is not always easy with the time involved. Water changes more frequent.. and sometimes feeding issues..
But in the end result- it's the only 100% way to guarantee it's safe.

They'll love the pods well enough once you wait the month.

Yeah.. and Qting for a month is alot easier and shorter (if all goes well) Than leaving a DT Fallow for 8 - 10 weeks! Which is what you'll have to do if you don't QT correctly (everything you buy) or risk that. Not to mention fish loss.
 
My Anthias (Bartletts and Ignitius), are planktonic water column feeders too and must have at least learned to go after pods on the rocks. Cause I've seen them do it.

Feeding new Anthias can be challenging. The DT will obviously make them more comfortable than a barren QT. But it is still a risk.
If they are feeding well now.. try to just keep it up.
Use plastic pvc or fake rocks etc.. to provide some comforting shelter.

BTW.. I love Pet World too. I've shopped there as well as many of all the other Upstate stores. But are you there 100% of the time? You don't know what every employee may do. Cross contamination even briefly etc.. You can trust.. but it can bite you sometimes.
I've seen fish fine in the store.. then come down with ICH in a QT even long after coming home. (Not right away)
Again, you "may" be ok. But I'd advice against it to be safe, especially if they seem like they are ok eating etc..
 
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Deep Blue,

I HAVE been bitten hard this Spring just as you describe.....lost everything just after a move. I let the tank go fallow for 12 weeks just to make sure; this is why I have so many pods. After research I thought P. tuka might be worth a try...so I was THRILLED to find them locally, and so healthy.

I actually have live rock in a vat that has been without fish for about 4 months. I have a few pieces of that in the quarantine so they can hide and I have had no detectable ammonia this week. I guess I know I should wait the 4 weeks but the water is a little cloudy from the heavy feeding and I am worried about bacterial infections. I did use Potassium permanganate in the water a few days ago to help clear it up between water changes....a little trick I leanred when I kept goldfish.

Have you ever kept P. tuka? I have read everything I could find on the net about this species and every one says they are about the hardest anthias. This is why I go back and forth. I was lucky to find a healthy pair that was eating, but I hope they continue to eat enough to sustain themselves.

3 more weeks? really? I know....I know......

thanks for your advice!
 
common names stink

common names stink

very innaccurate. pascalas is the true "purple queen" (I believe).

In this case it's good news because tuka are easier to keep than pascalas.
In any case, I think the major issue with Anthias are worms.

I love that Aqua Shoppe/Pet World and a go in there every now and then.
Not the greatest or healthiest marine animals, but WAY better than many other LFS's I've seen across the USA.

Anthias love water current and it's hard to set up a decent proper flow in QT.
Without food moving in the water column it's often a challenge to get them to eat. If they're eating in your QT and staying fat I'd be tempted to stay with QT, otherwise... I'd make the difficult call for DT.
 
Monitor Ammonia & Nitrates daily in the QT.
The biggest challenge with the water conditions in the QT is often the need for changes frequently.

Not sure what size QT your using.
I used a 55 gal. to accomidate my Anthias originally.
The length enabled me to set up good flow pumps to create the current they appreciated. I used some old but perfectly working Koralia.
The bigger the QT tank, obviously the more expensive the water changes because more frequent use of larger amounts of salt mix of course.

Some people don't want to use really big Qt's because of that. I don't blame them. Some can't. But it's better if you can.

With fish like Anthias it's a good idea if you can do it.
The water conditions and flow are huge factors. A little slump in parameters and it can kill them. Decreased flow often makes then be less comfortable and tend to hide if they can.

At any rate, good luck. I admire your choice of species. Quite a challenge usually. They (Tuka) are closely related to the true Purple Queens and have a lot of Purple color. But Gary is right. Their close relative (Pascalas) lives in much deeper water.
 
They are out a little more every day. The water tests well, but occassionaly clouds up due to the heavy feeding. I will step up the water changes...taking water out of the DT to get them used to my parameters.

Just to make sure, as many pictures are hard to see, tuka females have yellow on the top and bottom fork of the caudal fin whereas pascalas do not. Is this correct? the great majority of the pictures out there are only of males....and I have two females. Does anyone know?
 
Yes, the Tuka female has yellow on both forks.

Here's a female pic of the Pseudanthias tuka. Pic 1 and pic 2 of a male/female pair. Common names: Purple Anthias (NOT "Queen") or Yellow Stripe Purple Anthias.

-and much more easily obtainable for the aquarium trade than it's closely related cousin (Pseudanthias pascalus, the Purple "Queen" Anthias)
see next post below.
 

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The difference-
Pseudanthias pascalus
Common names: Amethyst Anthias or Purple "Queen" Anthias.

The female Amethyst Anthias(or Purple Queen) has no yellow band on the back or yellow on the caudal fin. It is closely related to the Yellowstripe Anthias (Pseudanthias tuka) and because of such the 2 species are often confused. But do have distinct differences.

They are found in much deeper water 100' or more and are less easily aquirable than other pseudanthias. They also prefer dimmer lighting and typically should not be kept in shallower style reefs(high lighting). One "may" be able to acclimate them to brighter lighting. But it's not suggested. They have a higher cost in the hobby than their cousin tuka. One of the most challenging Anthias of all.
 

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Thanks Deep Blue. I think from those pictures I clearly have 2 female tuka. You and Gary are so helpful. I really appreciate your insight and experience!

thanks
 
I've never experienced an outbreak. I'm hoping, GOD willing, I never will. Nonetheless, in the event of a disaster, what is the procedure re: allowing one's tank to go fallow, including how long, etc. What about inverts and corals?
 
All new purchased fish should come home and go in a QT (quarantine tank) for a month. Before being placed into your main DT. (display tank)

If an "outbreak" were to occur in your DT, it's because Ich or other parasites entered your DT via contamination (water transfer) &/or More likely in most cases via an infected fish that was not quarantined properly. This can sometimes even take a while to show up. Since Ich has life cycles that are invisible to your eye. However, It can be "prevented" in full proof fashion by quarantine of all new fish for 30 days (a month)

If in case your DT is infected, then you must remove ALL fish from it to quarantine tank or tanks. Then leave the DT fallow for 8 - 10 weeks. While treating the infected fish in the meantime in the Qt's. Treating methods of your choice. There is much in depth info on them for treating the actual fish. (Tank Transfer method, Hyposalinity, Formalin/malachite green, Copper etc. or combinations of all the above)

Simply put the cure for the actual DT is just leave it fallow (empty of "fish") for the 8 - 10 weeks. Inverts / corals are NOT affected and do not need to be removed at all. It only affects fish. The ONLY way to rid a DT of Ich which is in it living in various life cycles- is leaving it fallow for the 8-10 weeks. The process (totally doable, is painstaking sometimes with the wait.. period of time)

Much easier to just do things right the first time and quarantine all new fish purchases first.
 
I have also found Choloroquine phosphate very good at eliminating crypt and velvet. It works more quickly than copper and is useful for fish that are sensitive to copper. I have had good luck with tank transfer and hypo for crypt, but neither will eliminate velvet. Unfortunately I have lost anthias during Choloroquine treatment. I do not know that it was the meds, but they surely did not SEEM that sick before treatment.

Do people medicate as a matter of course in QT?
 
For new fish just purchased and going in intial QT, I would not.
Some people will use a little prazipro sometimes.
If something arrises during the qt time, then Yes of course.
But personally, I would not medicate unless I had an obvious real need to.

Obviously, when you have a problem with parasites or bacterial infections you may choose to treat the QT directly OR give baths with meds.
Hyosalinity can be used or tank transfer. But I would not medicate in anyway if not needed.
 
I treat all new fish via the tank transfer method for ich. It takes 12 days. Then I place them in a larger qt tank for observation for another two to three weeks to watch for maldies other than ich andtreat as necessary.
 
Here is a link with some details on acclimation,quarantine and treatments:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=acclimation+and+quarantine

This is my post from it:

Fish, acclimation, qauarantine and preventative treatment
<hr style="color:#FFFFFF; background-color:#FFFFFF" size="1"> Questions come up from time to time on what to do with new fish to increasing the odds for survival and prevent pathogens from entering the tank. I've tried a number of approaches over the years . The following sumarizes the current method(s) employed:

All new fish are quarantined,no exceptions.

Acclimation:

The quarantine tank is temperature adjusted to match the bag water as closely as practical without opening the bag. If the bag is warm ,the tank water should follow it ; if the bag is cool then the tank water can be cool( the qt tank can then be heated or cooled gradually to match the temp of the dispaly tank. The unopened bag is floated for 15 minutes in the tank water to complete finer gradual temp adjustments.

The qt tank water should match the sg of the bag water or be lower than the bagwater. Usually, 1.018 or so is a good bet for shipped fish. Drops in sg will not harm fish. Rapid increases can cause osmotic shock The sg can then be adjusted upward at .001 per day over the course of the qt stay to match th display.

Next, open the bag ,remove the fish and put it in the qt tank. No drip needed or desired. Once the bag is opened CO2 blows off and raises the ph in the bag water . This transforms much of the ammonia that has built up in the bag from the low toxicity ammonium NH4 to the more toxic ammonia NH3. So getting the fish out of the bag once opened quickly is important to avoid ammonia toxicity , particularly for fish confined to the bag for long periods. Avoid letting too much bag waer get into the qt tank.


Preventative treatment and observation:

Ich is the most common plague. To treat it. Fish are placed in a small tank with new salt water. Tank water brings in organics and nutrients without the biofilter to handle them so newly mixed water aged and aerated overnight is used. The tank is simple with pvc for resting/hiding places , an hob and/or sponge filter and a heater. For burying species like leopard wrasses , a bowl of sand is added. The fish will remain for 3 days so ammonia build up is not a concern.generally. To be on the safe side a small dose of ammonia detoxifier is added on the 2nd day. It's fine to use the detoxifier since no meds are in play. In contrast, Detoxifier and bound copper meds are a deadly combination .

After 72 hours the fish is/are moved to new similarly equipped tank with the same temp and sg. Care is taken to avoid adding water which might harbor a parasite from the first tank The first tank is stripped of the equipment and drained down to a few inches to facilitate gentle capture for the tansfer. It is then fully drained and diried over night along with all the equipment. The drying kills any parasites or cysts . It is set up again for the next transfer. A total of 4 transfers with 3 days in each tank will ensure any ich that cme in with teh fish is left behind. This method is known as the tank transfer method and takes advantage of the timing ich( crytocaryon irritans) life cycle.

After tank transfer , the fish can be moved to a larger cylced qt tank for further observation and treatment of other maladies that may emerge like flukes or bacterial infections.
Tank transfer only treats ich. It may have some effect on velvet but that parsites life cylce is different. It will not help brooklynella, flukes or other infestastions that confine themselves to the skin or internal areas of the fish. So if these are observed a treatment with an appropriate med is required:

Amlyloodinium( velvet): copper or formalin.
brooklynella; ( fromalin)
Flukes and/or internal parsites; (prazi pro)
lymphocystus; good water quailty and nutrition;no known treatment.
bacterial linfections Triple sulfa or other broa d based antibiotics)



__________________
Tom
 
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