Question about clownfish market

[justinmcleod]

I have a paired Oscellaris couple w/ a GBTA and I have begun feeding them live blackworms. I have been reading about raising the inevitable larvae once they spawn, and it sounds like an interesting experiment. My question is: what are people's experiences unloading the small clowns once the reach selling size? Are local stores apt to buy them, or do people sell them individually through local fish clubs, etc. Just curious! Thanks!

 

[blueshroom55]

I have about 200 baby percs in a growout tank. Not old enough to sell yet. I started asking around and the first LFR I asked said sure, no problem. They will probably only give you around $5 or so, but if you have 200...

 

[iFisch]

You may want to contact Mods here. I am not totally sure if you are allowed to talk about potential pricing, etc.

I think asking where to sell may be ok, but as soon as pricing is talked about, I think you're walking a fine line.

 

[reefstew]

Most retail stores will give you store credit unless they know you. $5.00 is not bad .

 

[justinmcleod]

OK, thanks for the input, I wasn't looking for any specifics, just curious how people handle the babies. I figured that LFS were the main place to unload them, but didn't know if some people would unload them on websites or something. Thanks.

 

[tufacody]

Unfortunately w/ shipping costs, the LFS is typically the best place to buy them unless you are making a large order somewhere. To be honest, I wish that the cost of "low-end" fish would go up and the cost of "high-end" fish would come down. I think the breeders and LFS' would make more money and it would be better for the hobby.

 

[fishkid6692]

Unfortunately w/ shipping costs, the LFS is typically the best place to buy them unless you are making a large order somewhere. To be honest, I wish that the cost of "low-end" fish would go up and the cost of "high-end" fish would come down. I think the breeders and LFS' would make more money and it would be better for the hobby.

how so?

 

[tufacody]

Simple, more people buy affordable fish than expensive ones. Thus we have a very good understanding of the affordable ones, but still relatively weak on the rarer ones. Unfortunately, people equate rare with expensive. That of course is pure economics. But if dealers took a bit of a hit on the rarer species and made it up on the more common ones, I think everyone wins, especially the breeders producing more common fish like clowns.

 

[iFisch]

Simple, more people buy affordable fish than expensive ones. Thus we have a very good understanding of the affordable ones, but still relatively weak on the rarer ones. Unfortunately, people equate rare with expensive. That of course is pure economics. But if dealers took a bit of a hit on the rarer species and made it up on the more common ones, I think everyone wins, especially the breeders producing more common fish like clowns.

More people buy affordable fish, because they either want it, can't afford "expensive fish", which is understandable, or don't want an expensive clown.

Depending on what clown we're talking here, depends on how rare they are. Rare = expensive. And rare + unique = 2x more expensive. If dealers took a hit on expensive fish, no one would buy the cheaper fish, because they're more abundant. Also, by lowering the price of rarer fish, would mean MORE people would want the rare fish, which would do just the opposite - raise the price, because more people want these fish, and supply just isn't there.

IMO, the prices, are just fine where they are.

 

[tufacody]

More people buy affordable fish, because they either want it, can't afford "expensive fish", which is understandable, or don't want an expensive clown.

If dealers took a hit on expensive fish, no one would buy the cheaper fish, because they're more abundant.


How do you reconcile these two statements? I'm not saying every fish should cost $50, I'd just like to see the gap closed a little. Abundance dictating the price is exactly why it's cheaper to haul fish from their native environments rather than fostering plans to breed multiple species in captivity.

Don't get me wrong iFisch, I understand supply and demand quite well. This is why I am suggesting artificial pricing to begin with. If we continue to view these animals as mere commoditities, we harm the ocean, the breeders, and perhaps the hobby itself. Perhaps if fish like Gem Tangs didn't cost $3000, unscrupulous divers would be less apt to scoop them w/o regard to their rarity.

 

[iFisch]

Abundance dictating the price is exactly why it's cheaper to haul fish from their native environments rather than fostering plans to breed multiple species in captivity.

It is, yes. However with more and more active breeders, the price for tank bred and raised common clown fish, is roughly $5-$10 more than wild caught. A LOT of people buy tank raised, because it's better for the ocean's population, and tank bred and raised are more hardier and tend to last longer in an aquarium. And with local breeders, quite abundant, replacing a "dead" fish, is a lot simpler and cheaper, than simply collecting another wild caught one.



Explain to me how we are harming breeders and the ocean by practicing tank breeding and raising. This makes no sense to me.

if fish like Gem Tangs didn't cost $3000, unscrupulous divers would be less apt to scoop them w/o regard to their rarity.

They cost that much because either 1) they can only collect so many per diver, per month, per year, etc. 2) they ARE rare, and are hard to come by 3) they are only certain locations where this species of fish lives.

For instance the McCulloch's Clownfish. The McCulloch's Clownfish is one of the rarest clownfish species in the aquarium trade due to its limited range which is now part of a protected marine sanctuary. This fish is endemic to only one locale in the entire world, a small island off the east coast of Australia called Lord Howe Island. This small island in the Pacific Ocean was designated a World Heritage Site in 1982 and the waters in and around this small island are protected as part of the Lord Howe Island Marine Park. For this reason, the McCulloch's Clownfish has not been available in the aquarium trade for decades. These fish sell for $6,000 a pair. Due to reason 1,2,& 3, above.

Now "rare" and "expensive" tank bred clownfish are that reason because of how often the parents produce the total amount of offspring. For instance a Wyoming White or "Platinum" clown costs what it does, because very rarely do the parents produce this kind of offspring. Then, these need to be sold to retailers, causing them to be collected, shipped, housed, and reshipped. During THIS process, fish can arrive DOA, or severely stressed and expire shortly after. Thus, making the amount of fish originally purchased, diminished.


What clowns are you talking about, specifically?

 

[tufacody]

Explain to me how we are harming breeders and the ocean by practicing tank breeding and raising. This makes no sense to me.


Woa bud, I NEVER said that. In fact I think you are missing my argument altogether. My point is that perhaps we SHOULDN'T just treat these animals as commodities and let the rules of supply and demand prevail. I don't disagree with your analysis under the current framework. I'm suggesting that perhaps the industry should be regulated, if even self-regulated, at least to an extent.

 

[iFisch]

In fact I think you are missing my argument altogether. My point is that perhaps we SHOULDN'T just treat these animals as commodities and let the rules of supply and demand prevail.

To be honest, I wish that the cost of "low-end" fish would go up and the cost of "high-end" fish would come down. I think the breeders and LFS' would make more money and it would be better for the hobby.

We ARE letting the rules of supply and demand prevail. That's what I'm arguing for. You weren't, look above. ^

I just don't understand, why you wish the cost of "common" fish would go UP, because they're more abundant, and the price of "rare / unique" to come down, because there are less of them. How does a breeder and/or LFS make MORE money from this, and how is it BETTER for our hobby?

If you have 15, $5 bills (ie common clowns), or 5, $100 bills (rare / unique clowns), which do you have more of?

 

[iFisch]

Abundance dictating the price is exactly why it's cheaper to haul fish from their native environments rather than fostering plans to breed multiple species in captivity.

I actually think it's cheaper for there to be more breeders than it is to pay divers to collect tons of fish, and ship them to the US.

If we continue to view these animals as mere commoditities, we harm the ocean, the breeders, and perhaps the hobby itself.

Woa bud, I NEVER said that.

 

[tufacody]

LOL ifisch, I know we are letting the rules of supply and demand prevail. I AM suggesting something different.

I don't think I can explain this any clearer. Right now clowns are the best example of captive-bred fish. But because they are so cheap and abundant, even if gathered from the ocean, there is not nearly as much incentive for the breeders because they barely break even on the resale. However, clownfish are easily the most popular fish. If they sold for $30-40 bucks because this is all they were offered for, I believe people would still want them, and yet the breeders would triple their revenue, thus providing more incentive for captive breeding in general. I'm not sure why you keep thinking that I am espousing that price should have anything to do with availability. I am making the complete opposite argument - that it should have NOTHING to do with availability. I admit, however, that this is an ideal and perhaps not even possible in a free market. Nevertheless, we see price fixing in other areas all the time, from milk to oil.

If you would like to friendly debate this further, lets take it to PM. I'm not sure we can do much more here.

 

[iFisch]

If you would like to friendly debate this further, lets take it to PM. I'm not sure we can do much more here.

I am being very friendly - despite what I am saying. The internet can be hard to decipher exactly the intentions of one another. I like debate, and for one who likes debate, I am very open to new suggestions and ideas, however sometimes, there's just nothing we can do to change certain things. There are, as they are. I have learned more things, by willing to accept and understand other possibilities from other people.


Can you give me an example of what livestock (either fish or corals), can you price, that is NOT due to availability?

 

[tufacody]

i dunno, friendly or not, this is getting humerous. I can NOT think of an example of livestock, either coral or fish, where the availability does not affect the price. THIS IS WHAT I AM SAYING IS THE PROBLEM AND SHOULD BE CHANGED.

What I am suggesting here is price fixing. Pure and simple.

 

[iFisch]

i dunno, friendly or not, this is getting humerous. I can NOT think of an example of livestock, either coral or fish, where the availability does not affect the price. THIS IS WHAT I AM SAYING IS THE PROBLEM AND SHOULD BE CHANGED.

What I am suggesting here is price fixing. Pure and simple.

It is getting pretty humorous. I don't think it's a problem to most, quite honestly. If it should be changed, it should be changed in a way it helps the consumers. Increasing the price of common fish, and decreasing the price of rarer fish, is NOT helping the consumer.

I understand "price fixing" - but while it is pure and simple, it ALL depends on availability in this hobby. While it may work elsewhere, I just don't see how it can work in this hobby.

I may be wrong, but it seems you WANT the "expensive" fish. Because you want to raise the price of "common" fish, and "lower" the price of 'rare' fish. This just isn't going to happen.

While you suggested price "fixing", you even admitted yourself "it isn't going to happen".



I think we can put this to sleep.

 

[tufacody]

Yes, finally we reach an understanding. It is true that I would like to see more money go to the breeders. It will hit the "consumer" a little harder, but responsibility always hurts a little more than irresponsibility, at least in the short term. But think of it this way, do we really want to be considered "consumers" in this hobby? Perhaps its that philosophy that is leading to the destruction caused by our hobby. I don't see how price fixing is related to availability. In fact the whole concept is contrary to availability.

My comments on this really are not self-interested. My tanks are where I want them and I wouldn't add more anyway. These comments are purely based on the hobby and its sutainability. Nevertheless, I do have a pair of spawning clowns. Although I have not attempted to raise them yet, it would be nice to know that if I did I would at least break even. I'm not sure that's the case right now. Perhaps if it were, I'd have raised 50 clutches by now. Perhaps we all would have.

 

[iFisch]

I have nothing else to say.



Good luck -