Question: do you have to rinse the pipe?

Sk8r

Staff member
RC Mod
If you've got a length of pvc pipe you're using for a return line, etc, and downflow,... can someone talk about rinsing out the manufacturing dust, etc, and what's adequate to be sure the pipe is ready to use, granted this is a closed loop and won't have the usual flushout from the house lines.
 
Before glueing it in I usually let hot water run through pipes and fittings, then whipe with a cloth as much as I can. To get inside pipes, I wrap cloth around a plastic rod and shove it inside the pipe (similar like cleaning shotgun barrel type of thing). After gluing (passed 24 hours) I run some water through the assembly. That's it.
 
All PVC (unless black or CPVC) does give off levels of Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate...
http://www.epa.gov/boston/eco/airtox/fs/dehp.html

http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profiles/bis_2-ethylhexyl_phthalate_c_V1.shtml


Now, it might seem like it takes alot to hurt a human, but keep in mind that places like Sigma-Alderich Chemical have to use glass drain plumbing because if they used PVC their output of the Bis2 would exceed federal regulations... odd, because every other place that uses PVC isnt subject to wastewater monitoring, but because they are a chemical mfg, they are.

But this is the primary reason why PVC is not for drinking water either... so it makes you wonder...

And experiments have been done with fish that are exposed to trace levels of this chemical, where it disrupts the fish's endocrine system over time and causes death. now, these experiments are conducted with the open lake/ocean fish in mind... in the aquarium, esp one with closed loops, extensive return plumbing, etc... the concentrations are much higher.

Maybe thats why so many of those reef tanks overseas use the dark-grey PVC. So in conclusion: white PVC itself might be killing the fish.
 
Dark grey PVC, as in that 'other' stuff you can buy at Lowe's?

I'm glad I asked! I may buy my own pipe and then call the plumber. What's the difference with the grey stuff? Is it waste-line or drinking certified? I'm way at sea with plumbing.
 
ABS is black--All Black Stuff. ;) White PVC is Sch40 or lower. Light grey is Sch40 electrical conduit. Dark Gray is Sch80 pipe--heavier duty.

White PVC is for drinking water. It is not for hot water though. That's CPVC.

The company I work for designs water and waste water treatment facilities. We use PVC for drinking water, although it is Sch80. I don't know if Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate is tested for or not though.

Can carbon clear up the toxins?

Jason
 
I have found a plumber that can install CPVC or Pex. Gold Seal. I think they're a national company...for anyone else who's interested. I'm very glad I asked this question, and provide the following for anyone else: [I now know more about pipe than I ever planned to know---just in summary.]
1. the gray/black is ABS---and it is primarily used for drains, tends to curve a bit because of the way it's extruded, is Bis2 free, but is not tested for pressure, because it is a drain line.
2. PVC does have the Bis2 problem, which can build up to significant levels in a closed loop.
3. Pex [flexible] and CPVC [light gray, rigid] are both used under full house pressure, up to 100 lbs psi, and are non-Bis2.
4. ordinary plumbers do not stock CPVC.
5. many pipe houses do not have CPVC but may have Pex.
6. Neither Lowe's nor Home Depot have CPVC.

That's the sum of what I know/have found out from you kind folks.

Now I'm wondering what I'm DRINKING from...
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9464881#post9464881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lakee911
ABS is black--All Black Stuff. ;)
ABS~ Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene... the three chemicals used in the make-up of ABS plastic
 
Use regular white pcv with pvc cleaner and glue and call it a day. Everybody and there mother uses this. I have never had an issue or anyone else that I know has had a problem with this.
Ken
 
True, most people use it... lots of it, and there isnt alot of damage we know about because of it. But who knows... it might be an overlooked toxin in our tanks.

lakee911, are you sure that they use regular white-PVC for drinking? I remember that being against code... all drinking lines were CPVC.
 
Not only that, but so do the manufacturers of skimmers, Ca reactors, skimmer boxes, etc, etc.

I always amazed how delicate inverts are supposed to be and how I could glue piece after piece of pvc, and not see the animals melt away and die.
Ken
 
I just rinse in hot water to try & help force out some of the glue fumes with the heat. I typically try to let glued PVC sit for 24 hours before use, but in some cases, I glued, no rinse, and back into the system in 10 minutes & have not killed anything that I know of.

As for PVC & drinking water: The white PVC is used for both the hot & cold supplies in some houses. Mobile homes are all PVC.

Also, if you look in the faucet dept. at HD you will find the PVC riser tubes that go from the valve under the sink to the faucet. Both the hot & cold are the same & are PVC.

I doubt that rinsing will do anything to help with the 'Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate' problem at all since this would leach out of the pipes over time. It's not just on the surface.

Based on this website:

http://www.checnet.org/healtheHouse/education/articles-detail.asp?Main_ID=148

"Phthalates, the plastic softener used in soft vinyl products, are not found in water pipes, which are made from rigid, "unplasticized" PVC."

So I dont think we need to worry anyway.

Stu
 
stugray, no doubt PVC is used in many things for water supply, but those supply lines to the faucet are not the same as the white PVC used in drain pipes. CPVC is used for supply lines... it was designed to be. White PVC, otoh, was not.

Unplasticized PVC is the stuff like ABS and CPVC which isnt plasticized in its molding process. white PVC is plasticized.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9464891#post9464891 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r

6. Neither Lowe's nor Home Depot have CPVC.

My local Lowe's does stock cpvc. Maybe not all of them do, maybe your local Lowe's doesn't, but just wanted to point that out.
 
hahnmeister,

"White PVC, otoh, was not"

Sorry I disagree - PVC DOES IN FACT meet the requirements of 'NSF Standard 61 Drinking Water System Components - Health Effects'


Here are a couple of quotes:

http://www.ppfahome.org/pvc/index.html
"PVC piping is recognized as acceptable material for DWV, sewers, and POTABLE WATER SERVICES AND DISTRIBUTION in all model plumbing codes. These Codes normally identify acceptable products for specific uses based on the ASTM Standard designation. "


AND

http://www.ppfahome.org/pdf/pvc_commercial_construction_brochure.pdf

"PVC pipe has been successfully tested against NSF/ANSI 61 standard and other health effects standards for more than 35 years. While the safety qualifications of its metal counterparts have been consistently challenged, PVC has continued to deliver water as pure at the end of the pipe as when it enters the system."

Stu
 
Okay, you are quoting a mfg of all types of PVC... I doubt they will tell you more than they need to (for instance, that PVC production is a very toxic process... http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/PVC-Disguise-Greenpeace1992.htm#2). But one thing to take away from those links is that they say only PVC is acceptable for pottable water... this it true... but they dont designate which types. There are many types of PVC. CPVC is intended for drinking water, and white PVC for drainage, as well as dark grey for industrial applications. But they dont say that the white PVC is used for that pottable water. Look into the details.

The conclusion you have drawn from that link is that all PVC is safe for pottable/drinking water... this is not true. Its like going to an acrylic mfg website and seeing that 'acrylic can be used for bulletproof glass', and therefore assuming that all acrylic, even that 1/4" stuff, if bulletproof.

Show me something that says the white stuff is okay for drinking water... good luck.

Sk8r, every HD, Lowes, and plumbing supply around me has CPVC in stock.. 1/2", 3/4", and 1". The reason you may not have it is because local codes may prohibit PVC use in drinking water lines all together (because at one time it was all considered to contain carcinogens as well). For instance, local codes here dont require a pressure-test, or the use of test caps... so nobody sells test caps. Your local codes might require 100% copper on new plumbing... so CPVC wouldnt make sense to stock.

But I would like to quote you...
"2. PVC does have the Bis2 problem, which can build up to significant levels in a closed loop."
 
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"PVC is unique among plastics for another reason other than the fact it contains chlorine. PVC cannot be used without a range of additives. This is because PVC on its own is unstable and must always be used with additives called stabilizers.

PVC in its normal state is hard and brittle so plasticizers are used to make the material soft and flexible while others add colour (heavy metals), or make it fire resistant (flame retardants), or protect the material from bacteria and fungal growth (biocides).

Other chemicals are also added such as antistatic compounds, optical brighteners, impact modifiers and anti-oxidants. Of the many thousands of additives used with PVC, 150 are used in significant volumes.

These additives were originally developed to make PVC a marketable commodity- since it was essentially a waste product - but they may now in fact comprise more than 60% by weight of a finished product!

What happens to these chemicals when they are used to make different PVC products? They may be washed out (leached), lost to the air (volatilization), consumed by microbes (for this reason PVC sometimes contains 'biostabilizers', usually containing heavy metals); or they may pass into other materials by direct contact (migration). Whatever the case, PVC additives have now contaminated the environment on a global scale.

For instance over 1 million tonnes of plasticizers are used in western Europe annually, which 77% are used in PVC production. By far the most important plasticizer is Di-2-ethylhexyl- phthalate, commonly known as DEHP.

Total world annual production of this substance is estimated (1987) at between 3 and million tonnes. 1 Most is used for PVC production. It is now found everywhere in the environment (in Atlantic fish, bird eggs, marine mammals, corn plants) and is suspected to cause cancer in humans, according to USA research. DEHP is released in significant amounts into the environment throughout its whole lifecycle: 1% during production (mainly in waste waters); 0.05% during distribution; 1% during plastic blending, and further amounts from PVC products during use and disposal. 2

The migration of DEHP and similar plasticizers from cling film into foods, especially fatty foods such as dairy products, has led many manufacturers to offer non-PVC film. In Austria, DEHP is banned in packaging that has direct contact with food. In Switzerland, the use of DEHP for the manufacture of toys for children aged less than three years was banned in 1986, and in Germany its use in teething rings is 'not recommended'. In the Netherlands the potential ecotoxicological consequences appear better recognised - DEHP is on the priority list of environmentally toxic substances. It is also a priority pollutant in the USA. 3

Because it is to a limited extent water soluble, DEHP is carried with effluents into sewage plants, where it accumulates in sewage sludges and contaminate what could be a good fertilizer and soil conditioner. It is also fat soluble and will be absorbed into fatty products with which it comes into contact. Softening agents are therefore present in blood stored in PVC blood bags and consequently in the blood of patients who have received blood transfusions and of dialysis patients, and in food-stuffs which have been in contact with PVC (see Factsheet 6).

As with the plasticizer DEHP, the PVC industry supports other toxic industries. For instance foaming agents are used in some PVC products to economize on materials, to facilitate shaping car dashboards) and in the manufacture of upholstery. Eighty- five percent of all chemical foaming agents are used for PVC products. 4

PVC is inherently unstable and must there nearly always be used with additives known as stabilizers. This is not true of other plastics. Stabilizers are based on heavy metals: lead was the earliest, but cadmium, tin, barium and zinc are also used in large volumes.

Heavy metals are toxic not only to humans (bioaccumulation with severe organic consequences) but also to ecosystems."

- from: http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/PVC-Disguise-Greenpeace1992.htm#2

Keep in mind, most tests are in mind of open systems where water cah drain into a sewer, not get recirculated/trapped in a system.
 
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