Question: do you have to rinse the pipe?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9474450#post9474450 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lakee911
Another question that I'm not going to start either, Stu: "Is my tank, and it's components, good for my plumbing?" I have noticed PVC get brittle. Is it saltwater or UV or something?

white PVC will degrade and break down if subject to UV over a period of time. How much? Well... even a 36wattPC 7100K bulb was enough to 'tan' some PVC in a refugium.

The other thing we arent looking into is what the saltwater itself may do. So even though drinking water may be okay in some instances with white PVC, thats not to say that the highly corrosive saltwater we are pumping through has not effect. It most likely does.

I base that on experiences with valves. Hayward makes those automated ball valves, and there is one that I can use for freshwater/pool applications, but for saltwater, they make a differrent valve all together.

Being that most PVC is made in mind with freshwater applications of sewage in mind, I dont know that saltwater is even considered.

Perhaps its time to direct these questions to Randy Holmes-Farley or someone else who knows.
 
Way over thinking something that's tried a true if you ask me... Saltwater or not PVC is non-reactive.
I also would disagree with the statement that most PVC is made with sewage in mind, that is just not true.

Tim
 
Well... PVC pipe is made with sewage in mind... true... PVC can can be molded into toys, sheets, etc...

In particular, most of the PVC we buy is intended for sewage... HD, Lowes, contractor supply... that PVC is for drainage and sewer... sometimes for vents like on a water heater or furnace, but thats not the original intention of the pipe.

Do you have anything that says PVC is non-reactive in saltwater/corrosives?
 
hahnmeister,

I just cant believe your attitude.

I have posted numerous webites that explains IN DETAIL that PVC is not only perfectly safe for drinking water BUT WAS DESIGNED with municipal water mains in mind.

In fact, ( if you HAD checked the links above ) THis one IS FROM a PIPE website:

"PVC materials are resistant to many ordinary chemicals such as acids, bases, salts and oxidants." Or do you have a different SALT in your tank than they are mentioning?

PVC is NOT intended specifically for sewage! Are you ever going to answer my question why we can buy 1/2" PVC & ball valves if it only intended for waste?

I have rarely seen such closed-minded thinking on RMRC.

Lets quit with your 'expert opinions'. Just go read the facts.

Stu
 
I guess we should go pull out all of the SCH 80 PVC that we have been putting in wells around here then. What would you recommend we replace it with? Have to tell all the customers, "Sorry, the pimpinator said it was unsafe."
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9475205#post9475205 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
hahnmeister,

I just cant believe your attitude.

I have posted numerous webites that explains IN DETAIL that PVC is not only perfectly safe for drinking water BUT WAS DESIGNED with municipal water mains in mind.

In fact, ( if you HAD checked the links above ) THis one IS FROM a PIPE website:

"PVC materials are resistant to many ordinary chemicals such as acids, bases, salts and oxidants." Or do you have a different SALT in your tank than they are mentioning?

PVC is NOT intended specifically for sewage! Are you ever going to answer my question why we can buy 1/2" PVC & ball valves if it only intended for waste?

I have rarely seen such closed-minded thinking on RMRC.

Lets quit with your 'expert opinions'. Just go read the facts.

Stu

Actually, I was thinking the same about you. Im not being closed minded... Im saying that we should remain open-minded that this may not be an open&shut case. You are being closed minded by thinking that after reading a few webpages that you have all the answers. Sure, PVC is 'resistant' to alot of things... resistant and totally inert or proof are two different things. When I go SCUBA diving, I use a waterproof watch, not a water-resistant watch because if I use a water resistant watch, and it leaks... its only designated as resistant, so there is no warranty if it leaks. PVC can be resistant to chemicals, but that doesnt mean it wont give off trace amounts of chemicals. PVC has a 'smell', we can all agree on that. Well, what is a 'smell'? Its chemicals.

Im not giving an 'expert opinion', and I never claimed I was. I am just citing a few experiences that tell me this is something that is more than an 'open & shut' case. So I suppose I should get all bent out of shape and say you are being closed minded and that I cant believe your attitude.

Sure, PVC has been used for a long time, and many of us may never see the results of Bis-2 leaking into our systems... but for those of us who might have mysterious fish deaths after 5 years... it might be worth more investigation.

And yes, we do have a different salt than what they are mentioning... there is more than just salt in saltwater... chloride being a major component of saltwater that also happens to be a major component of PVC. Now, PVC is laced with various inhibitors to prevent leakage of chemicals in normal water, but when these inhibitors are exposed to the all the metals in saltwater, like copper for instance... they may go into solution. Not saying its 100%, but it is possible.

Hey, its more than you are letting on to because its the whole reason Black pipe is used in much of Canada (the black pipe is not PVC and supposedly more inert).

As for why we can buy PVC ball valves... well... who knows. I know they dont sell alot though. I dont think ball valves are commonly used in plumbing anyways, its usually needle/screw valves. These valves are also used with air/compressor lines though. Hey, just because someone sells it doesnt mean its a good idea. HD and Lowes also sell double-tumbler deadbolts, but most cities fire-codes prohibit their use... go figure.

Im going to do more research...
 
I guess you didnt trust my other quote on my very first post:

"Phthalates, the plastic softener used in soft vinyl products, are not found in water pipes, which are made from rigid, "unplasticized" PVC."

Link-

http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/education/articles-detail.asp?Main_ID=148

The stabilizer in PVC Pipe is BS715 NOT phthalates:

http://grandorth.com/pvc_pipe.htm

AND from: http://www.pipa.com.au/docs/FAQPVC.html

"Is PVC a significant source of dioxin?

PVC pipe contains no dioxin."

AND

"Does PVC pipe contain hazardous chemicals?.........PVC pipe produced in Australia contains no plasticisers"

( I'm sure he'll point out here that were not in australia & that they make their PVC pipe different.


The scare about the phthalates in PVC pipe is groundless.

Also, when I smell my PVC PIPE I smell notthing unless I cut it.

Now if you want to talk a bout a hazard: the true phthalates smell is the one you get when you blow up a beach ball or an inflatable pool.

Stu
 
Yeah... um.... as you mentioned, phthalates arent used in "unplasticized" PVC... but all those fittings we use are plasticized when they are molded (you cant extrude a valve and 'T'-fitting).

And yes, I know DEHP isnt the stabilizer in PVC, its the plasticizer.... two different things. Only uPVC (uPVC stands for unplasticised polyvinyl chloride) would be free of DEHP.

Also, one thing to consider is how the relative levels of DEHP are measured. Bis2 was thought to be a carcinogen for a long time, however, recent tests have suggested that it doesnt build up enough in our tissues to pose a threat. So using PVC for pottable water may very well be okay...

But the idea that 'if its okay for us, it must be okay for the fish' doesnt apply here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate

I know wiki is a pretty weak source, but there are numerous other articles where testing has been done on fish and similar results are found. So while we may be okay, it can kill smaller amimals. Since PVC is sold with human consumption in mind, the effect of DEHP on animals may not be taken into account.

Again, I cant say for sure. Perhaps the pipe itself is okay because its extruded. I know that legislation and suggested reformulations of PVC (with more inhibitors that can endure freshwater at least, but who knows how they hold up in saltwater) may play a role here. Perhaps 10 years ago it was a different story.

But that is why I have fielded this question to the real experts at the chemical companies I know of. Ill post what they say when I hear from them.

Food for thought... PVC has been outlawed in Germany due to these concerns, even uPVC. Ever wonder why?

http://en.allexperts.com/e/p/po/polyvinyl_chloride.htm

"Phthalate plasticizers
Many Vinyl products contain additional chemicals to change the chemical consistency of the product. Some of these additional chemicals called additives and plasticizers can leach out of vinyl products. Because soft PVC toys have been made for babies for years, there are concerns that these additives leach out of soft toys into the mouths of the children chewing on them. Vinyl IV bags used in neo-natal intensive care units have also been shown to leach DEHP (Bis(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate), a phthalate additive. In January 2006, the European Union placed a ban on six types of phthalate softeners in toys (See directive 2005/84/EC). In 2003, the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) denied a petition for a similar ban in the United States[1]; however, in the USA most companies have voluntarily stopped manufacturing PVC toys for this age group or haveeliminated the phthalates. In a draft guidance paper published in September 2002, the US FDA recognizes that many medical devices with PVC containing DEHP are not used in ways that result in significant human exposure to the chemical[2]. However, FDA is suggesting that manufacturers consider eliminating the use of DEHP in certain devices that can result in high aggregate exposures for sensitive patient populations such as neonates. However, alternative softeners have not been properly tested to determine whether they are more or less safe. Other vinyl products, including car interiors, shower curtains, flooring, etc., initially release chemical gases into the air. Some studies indicate that this outgassing of additives may contribute to health complications, but this information is preliminary and further study is needed.

According to some medical studies, the plasticizers added to PVC may cause chronic conditions such as scleroderma, cholangiocarcinoma, angiosarcoma, brain cancer, and acrosteolysis. PVC has been used in many products for many years and still there is not proof of significant harmful effects from exposure. There have been studies, some cited in this article, that indicate "links" with certain medical problems and exposure to PVC products. These links deserve additional study.

In 2004, a joint Swedish-Danish research team found a very strong link between allergies in children and the phthalates DEHP and BBzP, commonly used in PVC.

Alternative plasticisers are being developed but in many cases these alternatives remain significantly more expensive and their technical performance varies. It is also worth noting that some, though not all, of the alternatives pose significant health risks."

However, alternative softeners have not been properly tested to determine whether they are more or less safe.
^^^ that part got my attention. Since PVC isnt intended for consumption, the FDA doesnt regulate it, only 'suggest' things. But the idea that DEHP might be getting replaced with something even worse... ouch.

Here's another thing to consider... did you know that new carpeting, which has that 'new carpet smell', is actually a known carcinogen? You arent supposed to let kids play on new carpeting even for the first year because of all the crap it contains (some doctors suggest never and to just not use carpet)...
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/abscarpet.htm

http://www.watoxics.org/files/carpet-fact-sheet
So just because its sold in America, and the mfg. says its safe... dont take their word for it. The french-fries at McDonalds, the high-fructose corn syrup in so much of our food, msg, tobacco... the list goes on. Its the buyer's responsibility to make sure they are being safe in the end... in the case of PVC, it the mfg's may be relying on the ignorance of the general public, as often bans and regulations dont take effect until there is significant public awareness or outcry.

Im surprised you linked this source...
http://www.checnet.org/healthehouse/education/articles-detail.asp?Main_ID=148

It seems to cause more alarm over PVC than anything... if not from DEHP, from all the other things that are in PVC.
 
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"Im surprised you linked this source"

I did that on purpose. It specifically states in there that the Vinyl that kids toys are made from contains the harmful chemicals ( which PVC pipe PRIOR to the 90s ALSO had ) BUT modern PVC PIPE does not.

I of course agree with you about how awful these chemicals are for us & the environment, no question there.

The main point is that the plastics industry went to extreme lengths to change the composition of the PVC in pipes just so it could be used to move drinking water.

Thats why the PVC pipe I use is labeled right on the pipe that it is suitable for drinking water. I still dont see how you can overlook that fact that the NSF requires that the levels of chemicals in these items be perfectly safe for drinking water. That is the specific reason for the NSF-61 designation.

You are arguing that the "National Science Foundation" and the "American Society for Testing & Materials" is either inept or corrupt.

Should we start a discussion about the hazards associated with acrylic next?

Stu
 
Okay, gotcha... but NSF-61 applies to human consumption, and with fresh water, and these levels can be higher than what might be acceptable for animal/fish consumption.

Lol... dont get me started on acrylic...lol.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9462820#post9462820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
But this is the primary reason why PVC is not for drinking water either... so it makes you wonder...

Heh? All of my white PVC carries an NSF certification (at least 3 different brands). That means it IS CERTAINLY APROVED FOR POTABLE WATER! PERIOD.
 
Oh, Bean... you havent been following... weve progressed past that. NSF certification for potability doesnt mean automatic safety for fish though. We also use copper pipe for drinking water... doesnt mean we should use it in our reef tanks.
 
Hahn... honestly you have walked a bit far out on that limb. With each post you shovel more silly science and retreat further from the original point.

You ran out of plank and now your trying to draw a similarity to copper pipe? The copper pipe analogy is a straw argument. I can as easily say glass pipe is NSF certified AND IS SAFE for our reef tanks. We can then talk about any other kind of pipe or product that may or may not be NSF certified and may or may not be reef safe. The point being that ther is no credible data that PVC is dangerous for the reef. There is credible data that says copper is bad for the reef.

I would save your energy for something worth debating.

This entire argument is nonsense. NSF certified PVC pipe is human safe and reef safe.
 
And I did follow the thread... I just could not bring myself to read thos long verbose posts that wander through the misapplied scientific explanations. Honestly... it is time to give the armchair science a rest again :D

I would be more concerened about what kind of material my skimmer aerates into the tank every day. Think about it.
 
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Well, the peanut gallery has spoken I see... so do I have to go and get a chemical engineering degree before those links I posted are valid? Just because you arent interested in investigating something further doesnt mean you should dismiss it. If that were the case then we might all be using wet-dry filters still because nobody questioned if there was a better method. Be open minded Bean. Nobody saw how PVC was bad for use in little kids toys until long after the era where it was seen as safe and common practice. Plasticizers may be reduced, or eliminated, but that doesnt mean that they arent being replaced with something worse. If it smells, its giving off chemicals. If it smells like plastic, its most likely giving off plastic chemicals.

Im just going by what the engineer at sigma-aldrich told me. Ill wait for the expert response before I claim anything concrete. But its safe to say that NSF certifications dont automatically mean 'reef safe'. You may not want to admit or believe it, but there might be a sound reason for why countries like Germany dont allow PVC. America has some pretty lax safety standards in comparison. Sometimes public awareness isnt as good as it could be... for instance... ethanol. Great alternative fuel? Yeah... maybe... if its production didnt pollute so much and cost so much. PVC could very well be our next 'asbestos'.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9475571#post9475571 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Actually, I was thinking the same about you. Im not being closed minded... Im saying that we should remain open-minded that this may not be an open&shut case. You are being closed minded by thinking that after reading a few webpages that you have all the answers. Sure, PVC is 'resistant' to alot of things... resistant and totally inert or proof are two different things. When I go SCUBA diving, I use a waterproof watch, not a water-resistant watch because if I use a water resistant watch, and it leaks... its only designated as resistant, so there is no warranty if it leaks. PVC can be resistant to chemicals, but that doesnt mean it wont give off trace amounts of chemicals. PVC has a 'smell', we can all agree on that. Well, what is a 'smell'? Its chemicals.

Im not giving an 'expert opinion', and I never claimed I was. I am just citing a few experiences that tell me this is something that is more than an 'open & shut' case. So I suppose I should get all bent out of shape and say you are being closed minded and that I cant believe your attitude.

Sure, PVC has been used for a long time, and many of us may never see the results of Bis-2 leaking into our systems... but for those of us who might have mysterious fish deaths after 5 years... it might be worth more investigation.

And yes, we do have a different salt than what they are mentioning... there is more than just salt in saltwater... chloride being a major component of saltwater that also happens to be a major component of PVC. Now, PVC is laced with various inhibitors to prevent leakage of chemicals in normal water, but when these inhibitors are exposed to the all the metals in saltwater, like copper for instance... they may go into solution. Not saying its 100%, but it is possible.

Hey, its more than you are letting on to because its the whole reason Black pipe is used in much of Canada (the black pipe is not PVC and supposedly more inert).

As for why we can buy PVC ball valves... well... who knows. I know they dont sell alot though. I dont think ball valves are commonly used in plumbing anyways, its usually needle/screw valves. These valves are also used with air/compressor lines though. Hey, just because someone sells it doesnt mean its a good idea. HD and Lowes also sell double-tumbler deadbolts, but most cities fire-codes prohibit their use... go figure.

Im going to do more research...

Hahn, I'm not sure where you are getting your info. Ball valves are commonly used in modern plumbing, they offer less restriction than other types of valves. Your assertion is simply not true about sales.

As for black "pipe in Canada" I don't know anything about it. I can tell you however that the black plastic pipe we get here is generally ABS and not for potable systems.

As for a waterproof watch I can't recall seeing one. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm not going to make any absolute statements, but even my buddy's Suunto D9 dive computer I used a couple weeks ago in Florida is rated "Water Resistant" to 200m. Not "waterproof".

We're way off the topic here and I'm out of this conversation, I just really hate seeing erroneous information be spouted around as gospel.

That's it for me.
Tim
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9477568#post9477568 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Well, the peanut gallery has spoken I see. Just because you arent interested in investigating something further doesnt mean you should dismiss it. If that were the case then we might all be using wet-dry filters still because nobody questioned if there was a better method. Be open minded Bean. Nobody saw how PVC was bad for use in little kids toys until long after the era where it was seen as safe and common practice.

Im just going by what the engineer at sigma-aldrich told me. Ill wait for their response. But its safe to say that NSF certifications dont automatically mean 'reef safe'. You may not want to admit or believe it, but there might be a sound reason for why countries like Germany dont allow PVC. America has some pretty lax safety standards in comparison. Sometimes public awareness isnt as good as it could be... for instance... ethanol. Great alternative fuel? Yeah... maybe... if its production didnt pollute so much and cost so much. PVC could very well be our next 'asbestos'.

Hahn you can not carry aluminum in a Canadian or British coal mine. Why? Some bonehead decided that aluminum gives off toxic fumes when it burns and this could kill you. So next time your trapped in a mine fire... don't worry about the carbon monoxide, that aluminum clipboard could be your grim reaper.

You can not carry a calculator or a digital watch in a Canadian or British coal mine. Why? Weel of course they have batteries and could start an explosion. Then again the cells in such devices produce nowhere near enough current to create a hot enough spark to ignite methane. But then again, that forward thinking is saving lives!

Hann just because some chuckleheads in Europe ban something does not mean it is bad.

Asbestos, your kidding right? That is the best legal scam ever foisted on the world. Yeah maybe PVC toxins will turn out to be "like that".

Open minded? Isn't that what most folks say as they retreat into a corner and are out of all other arguements? Tree huggers use that one when their scare tactics are refuted. The global warming idiots are starting to use that "well it can't hurt to believe" nonsense. I am open minded... It is open and I use it with science and logic to come up with sound conclusions. PVC killing me and my fish is NOT a sound conclusion, no matter who in Europe banned it.
 
Well, PVC is being replaced eventually in the US as well... so I suppose we all are a bunch of chuckleheads. HDPE is replacing it in many applications (as well as PEX and ABS, but for our hobby, HDPE is most likely the solution).

Fine, dont be open minded or constructive. When and If I come back with data proving you wrong, then you have to apologize again. At least Im open to the idea that I may be wrong, and PVC may be of no real threat. You, OTOH, already have your mind made up that PVC being harmful isnt possible. If closed-mindedness was all we had to work with... think how backwards everything would be. No innovation, no alternatives... how boring.
 
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