Question: do you have to rinse the pipe?
- Thread starter Sk8r
- Start date
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
PVC being replaced? Not any time soon hahn.
Apologize again? Hahn... in 1000 arguements with you, I have not had to apologize once... as I am usually (always?) correct. Your a smart and articulte guy... but even smart articulate guys are wrong sometimes
With regard to the tank construction thread... I stand by what I said. You found an example but also wrote 20 paragraphs of science trying to explain why I could not be correct and dug yourself a pretty deep hole... Your "science" said I was dead wrong and could not be right... As usual, I was right and your science was wrong. That is the same as you have done here. If you would have left all of that nonsense science out the conversation would have been simple. You could have shown an example of what you were talking about and then we could have easily looked at my statement "most tanks" and determined if that was past, present, or both.
I honestly enjoy conversations with you UNTIL the science starts to wildly fly from your fingertips in an attempt to explain yourself out of a hole. It is just too much BS to deal with. It is the "Cliff Clavin" syndrome and tends to ruin a conversation.
I am done with this subject hahn.. it is just not worth fighting over.
Apologize again? Hahn... in 1000 arguements with you, I have not had to apologize once... as I am usually (always?) correct. Your a smart and articulte guy... but even smart articulate guys are wrong sometimes
With regard to the tank construction thread... I stand by what I said. You found an example but also wrote 20 paragraphs of science trying to explain why I could not be correct and dug yourself a pretty deep hole... Your "science" said I was dead wrong and could not be right... As usual, I was right and your science was wrong. That is the same as you have done here. If you would have left all of that nonsense science out the conversation would have been simple. You could have shown an example of what you were talking about and then we could have easily looked at my statement "most tanks" and determined if that was past, present, or both.
I honestly enjoy conversations with you UNTIL the science starts to wildly fly from your fingertips in an attempt to explain yourself out of a hole. It is just too much BS to deal with. It is the "Cliff Clavin" syndrome and tends to ruin a conversation.
I am done with this subject hahn.. it is just not worth fighting over.
drummereef
Team RC
As an outsider in this conversation I find it quite entertaining. :lol:
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
If you can get past my punctuation and spelling errors...In my haste to respond, I sometimes neglect to proofread.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Bean, Cliff Clavin was a moron who claimed to know answers and facts about things that either nobody cared about, or were actually false.
The difference between you and I is that I dont claim with 100% certainty that I am correct, only that there is a possibility that their may be something more to look into. I never claimed that I was correct about anything, only that I MIGHT BE, and that it would be something worth looking into.
Are you saying that keeping an open mind is a bad idea? Do you have any proof that says PVC is rated to be saltwater/fish/reef safe? If you do, please tell us or cite something with fact besides your personal opinion.
And as far as an apology, no, you are correct, you dont even apologize when you do turn out to be wrong, which makes you either a politician or a lawyer. I proved with one photograph that you were wrong, and that you broke your own tank in a frenzy to prove me wrong for nothing.
Well, here's your error... you have nothing to prove me wrong about! I never claimed anything, only that this might be something to look into... "No, you are wrong"... oh, okay. Im sorry, I thought this was a free country or something. Im sooo sorry for taking the time to look into something. Maybe next time Ill check with you first to see if its okay, or if you dont already know everything there is to know about PVC. What exactly makes you so qualified on this subject anyways?
The difference between you and I is that I dont claim with 100% certainty that I am correct, only that there is a possibility that their may be something more to look into. I never claimed that I was correct about anything, only that I MIGHT BE, and that it would be something worth looking into.
Are you saying that keeping an open mind is a bad idea? Do you have any proof that says PVC is rated to be saltwater/fish/reef safe? If you do, please tell us or cite something with fact besides your personal opinion.
And as far as an apology, no, you are correct, you dont even apologize when you do turn out to be wrong, which makes you either a politician or a lawyer. I proved with one photograph that you were wrong, and that you broke your own tank in a frenzy to prove me wrong for nothing.
Well, here's your error... you have nothing to prove me wrong about! I never claimed anything, only that this might be something to look into... "No, you are wrong"... oh, okay. Im sorry, I thought this was a free country or something. Im sooo sorry for taking the time to look into something. Maybe next time Ill check with you first to see if its okay, or if you dont already know everything there is to know about PVC. What exactly makes you so qualified on this subject anyways?
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
yep... PVC's days are numbered. HDPE is what many mfg's here are considering... ABS has some so/so chemical concerns as well like PVC. Beyond the PVC's use, its mfg process is extremely toxic (hellooo! chloride!).
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
That is just it hahn, I was not wrong. I said MOST tanks are made with the bottom pane set between the sides. You said I was wrong. Not only did you say I was wrong, but you wrote a science book explaining why. You went into forces and vectors and angles of dangles about why the bottom pane could NOT be set between the sides and resting on the trim. You gave force examples and cited science as your proof, along with 2 dozen tanks you owned. I said you were full of it. You seem to forget I also posted a picture showing I was right.
Don't you see that you took a simple argument and turned into a science project? You made up the science as you went. You did so in an attempt to discredit me. It turns out that all your science was BS becuase I and many others have tanks that are built exactly as I said. You see i NEVER SAID that they could not be built the other way. I did say that MOST were built the way I stated. We can quantify the word MOST of you like.
This thread is just about the same. So now you want my qualifications? Like I said when people start asking for qualifications and open minds, they are out of arguements.
No sir... when I am wrong I admit I am wrong. I am just rarely wrong
It is fine to question hahn, but I think if you look back and outline the points in each post of this thread, you will find that you started off posting as FACT what you are know saying is just something to look into. You started off from a very misinformed perspective and have had to change your arguement based on new information.
Have a nice day... don't get to upset!
stugray
Premium Member
AngeloM3
"My local HD has two types of PVC... NSF-DWV and NSF-PW"
The NSF does stand for National Science Foundation. The stamp states whether the PVC is safe for potable water ( pw ) or Drain Waste Vent ( DWV ). If you can, use the pw but I use both anyway.
Bean,
You nailed it:
"you will find that you started off posting as FACT what you are know saying is just something to look into."
Thats what drove me crazy in this thread. Hahn just spouted that PVC can NOT be used in drinking water systems. Then he said All of the houses around him only use it for drains...
Next he spews so much off-topic crap in his lengthy threads that hardly anyone wants to read it all.
Now he has backpedaled all the way to "well maybe it's bad".
It's hard to take someone seriously when their pronouncement of occupation is "I have been sent from da future to git mah loot!" and I have to keep looking at that purple hat.
LOL
And as far as the argument above about the tank bottom pane: I also agree with you. It is better to support the bottom in between the sides. Even if the bottom does not rest on any trim.
Even the instructions at http://www.Garf.org specifically state in their tank building instructions that " It is important that the weight of the aquarium is supported by the front, back and sides. There should never be any support under the bottom glass as this could fracture it." They use dowels under the bottom until the silicone sets.
Stu
"My local HD has two types of PVC... NSF-DWV and NSF-PW"
The NSF does stand for National Science Foundation. The stamp states whether the PVC is safe for potable water ( pw ) or Drain Waste Vent ( DWV ). If you can, use the pw but I use both anyway.
Bean,
You nailed it:
"you will find that you started off posting as FACT what you are know saying is just something to look into."
Thats what drove me crazy in this thread. Hahn just spouted that PVC can NOT be used in drinking water systems. Then he said All of the houses around him only use it for drains...
Next he spews so much off-topic crap in his lengthy threads that hardly anyone wants to read it all.
Now he has backpedaled all the way to "well maybe it's bad".
It's hard to take someone seriously when their pronouncement of occupation is "I have been sent from da future to git mah loot!" and I have to keep looking at that purple hat.
LOL
And as far as the argument above about the tank bottom pane: I also agree with you. It is better to support the bottom in between the sides. Even if the bottom does not rest on any trim.
Even the instructions at http://www.Garf.org specifically state in their tank building instructions that " It is important that the weight of the aquarium is supported by the front, back and sides. There should never be any support under the bottom glass as this could fracture it." They use dowels under the bottom until the silicone sets.
Stu
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Bean, with the tank panels, you are mashing up what i said. The argument was that most tanks made now are done so with the bottom panel UNDER the side panels. As for DIY and custom tanks, I agreed that placing the side panels around the center was better. But you got upset to the point where you broke the tank trying to get trim off. Then I posted the trim removed from my 40B, and a list of all the other tanks from AGA that have had the side panels siliconed on top of the bottom. Then we concluded that sometime in the 90s, the process might have been changed, as every AGA tank I can think of has the side panels resting on the bottom. Your tanks are older, mine are newer... most newer tanks (at least those sold by AGA which is a dominant mfg in the US) are made with the side panels on top of the bottom.
If you look back at that aquarium building thread, you will see this to be true. You were wrong. I know that most DIY threads and such suggest the side panels placed around the bottom... but that wasnt the argument... we were talking about modern mass-produced aquariums (not what they 'were' made like at one time).
So really, what are those qualifications? IT/MIS tech? Coal Miner? Armchair scientist? How do we know you are right all the time? You do have a tendency to write what sounds good, but does that always make it good & sound?
If you look back at that aquarium building thread, you will see this to be true. You were wrong. I know that most DIY threads and such suggest the side panels placed around the bottom... but that wasnt the argument... we were talking about modern mass-produced aquariums (not what they 'were' made like at one time).
So really, what are those qualifications? IT/MIS tech? Coal Miner? Armchair scientist? How do we know you are right all the time? You do have a tendency to write what sounds good, but does that always make it good & sound?
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
Oh, and my first post in this thread was to state that DEHP was a component in PVC, which it has been. DEHP is known to be a 'watched' chemical that can hurt aquatic life and small animals. Later, I did concede that perhaps newer methods have been implimented and that alternatives may be used, or that perhaps the FDA has deemed that the amount of DEHP in PVC doesnt pose a significant risk to humans.
But that doesnt really answer the original question of 'is PVC safe for our reefs'. If not DEHP, then what? Is PVC itself, or with the inhibitors, actually considered safe for use with corrosive saltwater? Do you know for sure? Or is there something else going on here? Is there a reason why HDPE is replacing PVC in many markets?
Sorry, I suppose I ask too many questions for you to tolerate. I know you like to give answers more than you like to ask questions.
But that doesnt really answer the original question of 'is PVC safe for our reefs'. If not DEHP, then what? Is PVC itself, or with the inhibitors, actually considered safe for use with corrosive saltwater? Do you know for sure? Or is there something else going on here? Is there a reason why HDPE is replacing PVC in many markets?
Sorry, I suppose I ask too many questions for you to tolerate. I know you like to give answers more than you like to ask questions.
hahnmeister
In Memoriam
I dont use regular PVC if thats what you are asking. Not on purpose, but the tank design I use just doesnt need it. I dont use closed loops anymore, so the only areas where I would need pipe is on the drain and return from the sump. Two of my 40Bs have built in sumps, so no pipe needed. The other (which is linked in) uses that corrugated drain hose that many HOB overflow boxes come with. Its just easier to work with than PVC. And as for return lines, that is clear hose.
On the 60 cube that my mother wont give back, there is some PVC, since the tank has a closed loop. The outputs are all 1" CPVC, and the intake is white PVC. That tank is something like 6? years old now.
For the new tank I am setting up, the return will be clear hose again, as I use the low-flow method for my sump. The skimmer will be using dark grey HDPE as it turns out... because it looks better than that bright white pipe. The drain... I dont know yet... maybe just get more HDPE. Its too early to say for sure.
On the 60 cube that my mother wont give back, there is some PVC, since the tank has a closed loop. The outputs are all 1" CPVC, and the intake is white PVC. That tank is something like 6? years old now.
For the new tank I am setting up, the return will be clear hose again, as I use the low-flow method for my sump. The skimmer will be using dark grey HDPE as it turns out... because it looks better than that bright white pipe. The drain... I dont know yet... maybe just get more HDPE. Its too early to say for sure.
stugray
Premium Member
If we learned one thing from this whole thread it is that: IF the material is PVC AND it is flexible, then it probably contains the plasticizers that actually ARE harmful to us as well as marine life.
The corrugated pipes that come with overflows & the clear flexible vinyl tubing both 'probably' contain these harmful chemicals.
I use both the corrugated & the clear vinyl tubing anyhow.
Stu
The corrugated pipes that come with overflows & the clear flexible vinyl tubing both 'probably' contain these harmful chemicals.
I use both the corrugated & the clear vinyl tubing anyhow.
Stu
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Hahn... your live in wonderland my friend. I was not wrong and MOST tanks are NOT built the way you say. The PROBLEM is that it does not matter.
If you WOULD HAVE SAID "Bean I do not think most tanks are made that way because mine do not appear to be" then we could have looked at the facts and had a discussion. Instead you babbled on about face punching and newtons theory of smashed glass.
It is not that you ask to many questions my friend, the problem is that you connect the dots with whatever appears to fit. You fit the science to match the conclusion instead of letting the science dictate the conclusion. The same logic is used with global warming... it is nonsense and not scientific.
Geeze hahn, just let it go.
I like our conversations when they are short and friendly. The further you get burried the deeper the BS gets.
That is the problem hahn. I did not twist or mahs anything.. I just stopped arguing with you because I tire of the 10 paragraph pseudo science posts. Hell your still back peddling on that thread and your initial post... not to mention we are back to you wanting me to beleive you had the trim off of all of those tanks.
If you WOULD HAVE SAID "Bean I do not think most tanks are made that way because mine do not appear to be" then we could have looked at the facts and had a discussion. Instead you babbled on about face punching and newtons theory of smashed glass.
It is not that you ask to many questions my friend, the problem is that you connect the dots with whatever appears to fit. You fit the science to match the conclusion instead of letting the science dictate the conclusion. The same logic is used with global warming... it is nonsense and not scientific.
Geeze hahn, just let it go.
I like our conversations when they are short and friendly. The further you get burried the deeper the BS gets.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I use PVC and FLEX-PVC, as well as black vinyl tubing.
BTW hahn, I do like to give answers. But I learn by asking questions... I am one of the most inquisitive people you will ever meet. I absorb everything around me and learn from it.
The reason I am not "wrong" often, is because I tend to not jump in feet first unless I know I am right. When I know I am wrong, I ask questions and strive to learn so that I can be right and more informed.
I suppose we argue pretty loudly here in RC, but in person I would imagine we would get along better than you think. If you do decide to make the trip to MACNA, you are welcome to stop by for a beer or three.
BTW hahn, I do like to give answers. But I learn by asking questions... I am one of the most inquisitive people you will ever meet. I absorb everything around me and learn from it.
The reason I am not "wrong" often, is because I tend to not jump in feet first unless I know I am right. When I know I am wrong, I ask questions and strive to learn so that I can be right and more informed.
I suppose we argue pretty loudly here in RC, but in person I would imagine we would get along better than you think. If you do decide to make the trip to MACNA, you are welcome to stop by for a beer or three.
