question i'm sure everyone wants answered

emperior911

New member
i've seen alot of posts with people asking "if i dont treat my fish, will ich go away on it's own." Most replies i've seen have said "no, must be fish free for 1-3 months in main tank to get rid of the ich." For me it's hard to believe that. I myself have had blue tangs, to powder blue's bring ich into my tank. having a 210 gallon tank with fish that are 12+, it can be difficult to find a solution to quarantine. now i'm not saying that it's not benifical to quarantine fish but From my experence most fish build up a immunity with combined water quailty and diet. My Queen angel, Purple tang, and Blonde naso tang have never got it. I've always heard "a healthy fish won't get ich" which is why i believe ich can go away on it's own... in most cases even if you quarantine your powder blue's and hippo tang's you'll still get ich, even if your main system is ich free...

some reading's i've read that ich is present in every fish, it's when the fish gets stressed it shows up...

i'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
 
For the most part, what you have heard are myths that have been debunked. Yes, some fish do survive exposure to ich and develop a LIMITED immunity. Unless all the fish in the tank obtain complete immunity, the parasite will survive at a low level for some time. Then add a naive (fish that has not developed a partial or complete immunity because it has not been exposed to the parasite) and the population of ich in the tank will multiply. At that point, even the fish with partial immunity can be overcome and you have a full-blown outbreak on your hands. Keep in mind that any immunity that the fish may develop is of limited duration.

Terry B
 
what about high voltage UV sterilizers? cleaner shrimp & wrasse... if you have healthy fish and their is a outbreak can they expel the problem? if it's minor... couple spots
 
another question, hopefully someone knows this... If the cleaner picks off the ich or eats it.. can it reproduce? second, i know their is different stages of ich.. if it never gets to the salty looking grains will it reproduce?


lastly some fish just have a stronger slime coat.. they don't generally get ich.
 
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html


Acquired Immunity

Acquired immunity occurs when the response is specific to the invading organism, which is recognised directly or through antigens (Dickerson and Clarke, 1996). Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections. Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.
 
I believe in allowing the fish to build immunity to ich. Now some may argue, if the fish can build immunity, why hasn't it already since it's lived in the wild, been transported to pet shop, then to our tanks. I'm sure there are different strains of Ich..and with each new strain, they will need to build a new immunity to it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6907115#post6907115 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by emperior911
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html


Acquired Immunity

Acquired immunity occurs when the response is specific to the invading organism, which is recognised directly or through antigens (Dickerson and Clarke, 1996). Colorni (1987) first suggested that marine fish could acquire some immunity to C. irritans by surviving several infections. Burgess and Matthews (1995) demonstrated acquired immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. They found that 82% of fish that had been previously exposed to high levels of theronts were immune to a secondary exposure.




Notice it states that A fish would have to SURVIVE SEVERAL INFECTIONS to aquire SOME immunity....SOME. Most fish won't survive several attacks and why would you stand back and watch your fish suffer just to see if it could?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6907516#post6907516 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BTTRFLYGRL
Notice it states that A fish would have to SURVIVE SEVERAL INFECTIONS to aquire SOME immunity....SOME. Most fish won't survive several attacks and why would you stand back and watch your fish suffer just to see if it could?

First part was a suggestion regarding repeated exposure. Secondly, they've found 82% to have been immune. I think those are pretty good odds.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6908705#post6908705 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by XeniaMania
First part was a suggestion regarding repeated exposure. Secondly, they've found 82% to have been immune. I think those are pretty good odds.




It clearly states the fish would have to survive infections, not just exposure

82% of Thick lipped Mullets were found to be immune to secondary exposure...I don't know much about Mullets, but I would presume them to be hardier and more resistant than many of the fish we keep in our home aquariums such as Tangs and Angels. If the study was done on Tangs and Angels, I doubt the outcome would be the same.
If it was so easy to let our fish fight off this parasite, there would be no reason to qt new fish, we would not hear of so many people loosing all of there fish due to ich.
If your dog was covered in thousands of ticks, would you leave the dog to overcome this parasite naturally? Probably not...but then you don't have to go through the hassle of dismantling a tank to get to a dog which is the reason many people ignore a suffering fish
 
bttflygrl, i understand where your coming from. but what are you going to do if you have 12"+ fish and don't have a place to quarintine them? you can't just drop them in a 10 or 20 gallon tank...
 
i just think alot of people overdue it when it comes to treating a fish.. blue tangs for example, no matter how many times you treat them they tend to have a few spots every 3-5 months..
they just stress out easy.
 
Well, I have a 240, so I have [right now] 2-55 gallon qt...BUT I won't ever have to qt all my fish and treat for ich as long as I qt them and treat [if needed] BEFORE placing them in my main. Its much better to catch ich and other parasites and diseases BEFORE they enter your main system



Blue Tangs can be ich free. I have 2 right now..No amount of stress is going to cause a parasite to appear in my tank if it is not there
 
It is hard - but they can be ich free! I also have 2 Hippos that have never had a spot of ich. They have been through a couple of power outages and an accidental kalk overdose - were stressed, but still ich free.

The only thing I have done is to Quarantine absolutely everything (including snails) for at least 4 weeks. You have to go slow and not make impulse purchases unless the QT is setup. However, it has been worth it! Lot's of acros and have never brought red bugs into the system either!

With 12, it would be tough. Maybe you can get a used setup and borrow another tank to get through the initial hurdle. If you do decide to QT them, make sure you have a really good biological filter system setup! I would put some ceramic media, sponges and a biowheel in the sump now to start and build it up (it takes about a month to build up enough to do any good.
 
Not sure if I have the answer - but do have some thoughts on this topic as I have advocated the "hair of the dog" approach many times in this forum. For starters, I do believe that fish can develop immunity to disease, including Cyrptocaryon. You essentially have to ask yourself if you believe in vaccines. If you don't - do you vaccinate your kids? And if you do vaccinate your kids, why? The same general principles apply to both mammalian and piscine immune development, although we know significantly more about the mammalian immune system.

There are many vaccines that have been developed for fish that work and have been shown both in the lab and field to provide good long-term protection. These include live vaccines that are very potent in eliciting an acquired immune response. This is key since there are many arms to the immune system - and what we are looking for is activating an acquired response with good, long-term memory. In the case of Ich (mainly based on the freshwater model) we know that the protozoan's cilia confer certain antigenic determinates - that is to say they stimulate the immune system. However, characterising the response by vaccinated hosts has a long way to go. In most instances, vaccine preparations (which contain killed cells or purified cilia/cilia proteins) try to replicate an infection - without causing pathology. However, such preparations are very different from live infections since they are "seen" differently by the immune system. It is therefore reasonable to assume that if a fish survives a mild infection then this would essentially act as a live vaccine.

The tricky part in all this is that controlling such infections can very difficult. But I think it can be done. It all boils down to environmental factors - the physiological state of fish (ie level of stress) and the environment it is living in. Some environments are inherently more stressful than others (eg. poor water quality, aggressive tank mates etc). This is why leaving some fish to 'fight off' an infection seems to work for some and not others. I think if your fish are healthy and stress free - they stand a good chance of fighting off the infection and developing immunity. Thus, my approach has been to provide an environment that fosters immune development and only step in with chemical intervention when the infection appears to be running out of control. As a result I have seen Cryptocaryon several times, but have never lost a fish to it, or had to treat with either hyposalinity or copper. However, many would advocate that treatment with hypo or copper are the only effective ways to deal with the parasite and not dealing with it means your fish are guaranteed to die. Simply not true in my opinion. It really depends on the specific situation.

The comment about strains is a very important one. Since there are often many strains of pathogens where immunity is not always cross-protective. This effect is seen in many infectious organisms and as a result many fish bacterins (vaccines against bacterial disease) often need to include multiple strains (basically to hit the optimal mix). Sometimes this works - sometimes it doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t. Streptococcus iniae, which commonly infects warm water fish, is one example of bug that is notorious for being very strain specific making commercial vaccine development difficult. Further, and this is very important where strains (or different serotypes) are concerned, some are inherently more pathogenic than others. Even more important, many strains can often attenuate over time - that is become less pathogenic. (The reverse can also happen - but usually only when artificially propagated from dead hosts). When a new fish is introduced two things can happen - an old strain that your fish are immune to, but the newcomer is not, can become problematic in the new fish. Or, the new fish may introduce a new strain to which your fish are not immune. For this reason quarantine is a valuable tool - but is not 100% foolproof. It is also why there are so many different experiences on the subject of Ich and Ich control.

This brings me to my last comment and that is infectious load. While I think it is possible to manage Ich by allowing fish to develop immunity - it really boils down to numbers. If the infectious load is too great the immune system will simply not be able to deal with it. Further, if your fish are heavily stressed this could suppress the immune system allowing a small infection to be a clinical mess. So if your fish are very stressed they won't have a chance and a large outbreak will ensue. If present in the same tank "immune" fish could very well become infected and succumb. Having said that, just because you quarantine your fish doesn't mean you will avoid Ich. It just means you reduce your chances significantly. Even if you treat your fish with hypo or copper during quarantine there is no guarantee you've eliminated it. It will, however, reduce the odds of seeing the parasite significantly further. Keep in mind that just because you don't see a spot on visual examination doesn't mean it isn't there. On the other hand, such treatments and practices must be balanced against the odds of stressing and potentially killing your fish with the treatment - which many experience. Even if you do eliminate Crytopcaryon from your fish - if you water quality goes off and your fish get stressed (for whatever reason) they will not do well and there is still a good chance that they will become infected with something else (unless of course you believe your fish and water are sterile...).

For me, the bottom line is to use quarantine as much as possible but to recognise that it is not foolproof and can be risky for very sensitive fish, but to also recognise that with good husbandry fish can develop immunity to many (but not all) pathogens. I therefore focus on fish and the environment - rather than the pathogen.
 
well stated. everytime i add a new fish to my tank it gets ich... But no other fish in the tank get it. that is why i think fish develop imunity. I never quarantine. have had the same fish for 1+ years

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Well...I'm totally getting bashed on another thread, the Blue Tang in Hypo thread for believing in natural immunity...lol
 
All you are really saying is that you have been able to keep it under control by keeping your fish strong. This part is true. If they get weak or something goes wrong like a power outage, all of your luck may change quickly. Plus, I am not sure the fish are really that comfortable when they have the occasional "bouts."

Somewhere in the thread I think there was a question of whether or not ich is always present. According to all the science in this hobby - it does not have to be present in a tank - but it does take alot of work.

If it works for you, that is fine. It does sound like you work at keeping your fish in good health - kudos to that! However, I don't think not quarantining should be a suggested protacol (especially for newbies). I think the most misunderstood thing is the amount of biological filtration that must be established BEFORE putting fish into QT. If you are going to stick fish in a tank without that - ammonia, nitrite and nitrates are of course going to make it too stressful for them to survive .Just my opinion.
 
! had a 29 gallon reef before a tragic plumbing accident that killed it but no matter what i did i could not kep an Angel in that tank. We tried a couple Coral Beauties, 2 Eblei Angels, and a Pygmy Angel and they all died of Ich within 2 weeks. I had 2 Ocel. Clowns , Bi-color Blenny, and a Diamond Goby in there also and never had a problem with them getting Ich, only problem i had was Angels.

I feel like the Dr. Kevorkian of Angel Fish
 
The following is a snippet from an article that I wrote for Advanced Aquarist Online magazine. It mentions some studies on the subject of immunity and Cryptocaryon irritans:

"Fish that have survived a challenge with Cryptocaryon irritans can develop some level of acquired immunity for up to six months (Burgess & Mathews, 1995b). Some fish will not develop any protection or acquired immunity. Fish maintain immunity by the presence of the parasite without evidence of pathological lesions. However, many fish are not completely protected and can sustain a low level infection (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). This may account for outbreaks at a later date since the parasite was not eliminated from the system. Stress can diminish the fishââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s immunity, enabling the parasite population to increase, resulting in a renewed outbreak (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Immunity or partial immunity may also explain why some of the inconsistently effective treatments previously mentioned appear to work at times.

The ability of fish to develop some level of immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans suggests that an immunological approach such as vaccination may be feasible. However, such a vaccination has yet to be developed."

Terry B
 
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