Quick electrical question

[TropTrea]

You have to be careful with many of the extension cord style GFCIs, as they often have to be manually reset after a power failure. The behavior is a safety feature based on the assumption that the cord will be used with power tools.

I think this is common wiuth all GIF's. I know the ones in our house hard wired in have to be mannualy reset as well.

 

[TropTrea]

Exactly... Even if the NFPA/NEC claims some type of jurisdiction over the home owner and their cord and plug devices, there is no enforcement or compliance mechanism anyway.


There is a thread around here (or somewhere) about a guy who "tried to do it right" when installing a 120 gallon aquarium. He called the local AHJ for electrical guidance and ended up opening a huge can of worms. If I remember he correctly the AHJ imposed some fairly odd and expensive electrical requirements but also required the homeowner to pay an engineer for load calcs as well as applying for and paying for some type of grey water storage and disposal permits.

I remember a simular situation when we had our house fire. I was usiing MH lights on my 75 gallon tank at the time and the insurance company told me if the firse would have caused by indoor use of MH lighting there would have been no coverage. Fortunatly the electrical fire was on the other end of the house.

But when we in construction a long discussion followed with the building inspector. As a result all my tanks are on a pair of sepreate GIF breakers. There are local, county, state, and National Electrical codes. The average house that is 20 years old probably has at least one ting that is not up to date with the modern codes. Most cases it is never discovered untill something happens or a home resale inspection discovers it.

then there are gradfather clauses. Some are ignorable but in a near by community with a single subdivision there were numerious hose fires of electrical origin. The builder of the subdivision used alumnium wire which was legal at the time of building and illegal now. By the grandfather clause they could not force 30 home owners to rewire there houses unless something happened or they tried to pull an electrical permit for something like adding an electric dryer or range.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think this is common wiuth all GIF's. I know the ones in our house hard wired in have to be mannualy reset as well.

MY comments may have been confusing:

Most receptacle type GFCIs stay "set" in the event of a power outage. They do not have to be manually reset when the power comes back on.

Many cord and plug (extension cord types) "trip" in the event of a power outage and have to be reset each time they are plugged in.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I remember a simular situation when we had our house fire. I was usiing MH lights on my 75 gallon tank at the time and the insurance company told me if the firse would have caused by indoor use of MH lighting there would have been no coverage. Fortunatly the electrical fire was on the other end of the house.

Yup... if folks actually read their policy, they would be amazed at what is not covered, or not covered unless it is specifically added to the policy.

The average house that is 20 years old probably has at least one ting that is not up to date with the modern codes. Most cases it is never discovered untill something happens or a home resale inspection discovers it.

In most cases, the only applicable code is the code that was in place during the construction. When future building permits are pulled, there may be a requirement to update certain aspects of the service to meet newer codes. The requirements may depend on the scope of work, local codes, etc.

The builder of the subdivision used alumnium wire which was legal at the time of building and illegal now. By the grandfather clause they could not force 30 home owners to rewire there houses unless something happened or they tried to pull an electrical permit for something like adding an electric dryer or range.

Aluminum wire was extremely popular from the mid 60's to the early 80's. It is still in millions of homes. Properly installed and maintained it is safe... That said, when confronted with an Al branch circuit, I opt to replace it with Cu.

 

[Merman1983]

They will both trip if there is a fault, and yes you can replace an arc fault with a GFI, especially when a GFI is required.

 

[Merman1983]

"Arc Fault Circuit Breakers (ignoring code requirements) are not well suited to aquarium use, and are extremely prone to nuisance tripping. In fact, they are so problematic that many jurisdictions are starting to hand out waivers in situations where the homeowner, electrician or inspector demonstrates that the NEC required AFCI is a nuisance."
So, BeanAnimal, are you saying that everyone who needs a GFI installed because the Arc fault is malfunctioning has to get a waiver from the city to remove the Arc fault because they're setting up an aquarium?

 

[sleepydoc]

GFCIs and AFCIs share some similarities but are distinctly different.

GFCIs simply detect current flowing to ground instead of back to the neutral (white) wire. i.e. current flowing outside of the usual path. They will generally trip within 25 msec if >5 mA of current is going to ground instead of to neutral. They are available as circuit breakers, as outlets, or as external devices as in an extension cord, as was suggested above. They are required in bathrooms, kitchens, garages, and other 'wet' locations. Thus the general recommendation that they be used for aquariums. Their primary purpose is to prevent shocks that may injure or kill people. They do not detect arcing, nor do they detect excess current, as long as it is not a ground fault.

AFCI's look for current arcing either between hot and neutral or hot and ground. As circuit breakers, they trip for excess current (i.e. 15 or 20A.) Most (? all) AFCIs will also detect ground faults, but they do so at higher current levels and more slowly than GFCIs and are not suited for personal protection. Their primary purpose is to prevent potential fires caused by arcing wires, not to protect people. They are now required in most living areas as was mentioned previously in the thread.

Early AFCIs were very prone to nuisance tripping, which I believe is what Bean was getting at; a nuisance trip is more than a nuisance for an aquarium setup. My personal experience is that the newer AFCI breakers are much more stable an less likely to trip. We live in a 2 year old house and have yet to experience a nuisance trip from an AFCI. I cannot speak in general, however.

Alas, this thread has wandered far from the OPs original question and is getting close to a bickering match, so perhaps it's best if we all let it rest. If he/she has more questions, the OP can start a new thread.

 

[BeanAnimal]

They will both trip if there is a fault, and yes you can replace an arc fault with a GFI, especially when a GFI is required.

An AFCI circuit breaker and a GFCI circuit breaker have very little in common and "trip" under very different circumstances.

AFCI circuit breakers have changed a lot over the last several years. Until recently (pre 2013) most had very limited GFCI functionality (a much higher current leakage threshold than a GFCI receptacle or circuit breaker) unless specifically listed as a combination AFCI/GFCI device. The current generation devices (to my knowledge) are all combination devices.

That means where a GFCI circuit breaker is required by code, a combination AFCI device can be used, as it has both AFCI (Arc Fault) and GFCI (Ground Fault) interrupt capabilities.

On the other hand, one can not simply substitute a GFCI where an AFCI is required by code. They are (again) not equivalent.

What is required by code? Well that depends on A) what version of the NEC your jurisdiction has adopted and B) what STATE and LOCAL codes have been adopted alongside the NEC.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So, BeanAnimal, are you saying that everyone who needs a GFI installed because the Arc fault is malfunctioning has to get a waiver from the city to remove the Arc fault because they're setting up an aquarium?

If one is required by code to use an AFCI but wishes not to, and/or has nuisance tripping problems with an AFCI that is required by code and wishes to remove it, then they would have to take that up with the AHJ in their town.

 

[BeanAnimal]

GFCIs and AFCIs share some similarities but are distinctly different.

GFCIs simply detect current flowing to ground instead of back to the neutral (white) wire

I would add a simple correction for the sake of passing on good information...

The GFCI has no idea what ground is. The current can be flowing to another hot conductor or potential, the GFCI only cares that it is not being returned on its neutral wire.

So sadly, even though they are called "ground fault" circuit interrupters, they are really just fault interrupters

The great thing about how they work is that they are a safer replacement for an old two prong receptacle that has no equipment grounding conductor.

Early AFCIs were very prone to nuisance tripping, which I believe is what Bean was getting at; a nuisance trip is more than a nuisance for an aquarium setup. My personal experience is that the newer AFCI breakers are much more stable an less likely to trip. We live in a 2 year old house and have yet to experience a nuisance trip from an AFCI. I cannot speak in general, however.

They are better than they used to be, but in my experience are still extremely prone to nuisance tripping with motor loads (especially brushed motors) and ballasts. There is not a single AFCI or GFCI breaker in my home, as I rewired it prior to the PA adoption of 2008 NEC (I think we were still on 1997 or earlier). I do use GFCI receptacles in many areas (on and above the code requirement) and that includes on everything in my fish room. The GFCIs in the fish room have prevented several disasters due to water soaked power strips, etc.

 

[TropTrea]

They are better than they used to be, but in my experience are still extremely prone to nuisance tripping with motor loads (especially brushed motors) and ballasts. There is not a single AFCI or GFCI breaker in my home, as I rewired it prior to the PA adoption of 2008 NEC (I think we were still on 1997 or earlier). I do use GFCI receptacles in many areas (on and above the code requirement) and that includes on everything in my fish room. The GFCIs in the fish room have prevented several disasters due to water soaked power strips, etc.

It is interesting that you refer to a 2008 code change. We had our house fire in 2006 and they had to completly reqire our house including all new breakers. Most of them are GFCI and we also have GRCI outlets near all water fixtures. Wonder now if that is NEC or local code? They also made us upgrade from 150 Amp service to 250 Amp service. Gee I remember the old days when some houses had only 30 AMP service and were updating to 60 Amp service. Any ones here still remember fuses rather than circuit breakers?

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is interesting that you refer to a 2008 code change. We had our house fire in 2006 and they had to completly reqire our house including all new breakers. Most of them are GFCI and we also have GRCI outlets near all water fixtures. Wonder now if that is NEC or local code? They also made us upgrade from 150 Amp service to 250 Amp service. Gee I remember the old days when some houses had only 30 AMP service and were updating to 60 Amp service. Any ones here still remember fuses rather than circuit breakers?

I referred to the 2008 code, as that is the code jump that PA made from the 199? code that was in place when I wired my home. I think it was the 1999 code that some of the AFCI requirements were put into, and they grew each year from there. In fact, at first they were just required for bedroom receptacle branch circuits. They are now (where the code has been adopted) pretty much required for everything, including lighting fixtures, 120V smoke detectors, etc.

As for PA, we are still on 2008 for the most part. However, PA adopted the 2009 BOCA codes (they reference the 2008 NEC). BOCA is a disaster, as it seeks to give a one-size-fits all "international" code to everything. So to build a deck here, it has to be built with the same basic snow loading calculation that one built on the north slope of Alaska would have to hold. Nuts...

In any case, I don't know what years WI adopted what codes, but you are now on 2011... Thank goodness we are not (yet).

 

[Paul B]

Trust me, I know about lectricity.

 

[sleepydoc]

Thought you had more corals than than, Paul!

 

[Silvergryphon]

Sorry for the delay in keeping up with this thread, the flu is currently rampaging through the family.

This was version 2 of my original idea, with the plan on putting a cover over it to protect against splashes.:

Forgive my crappy msPaint skills, but it gets the basic point across. My plan was to mount this to the side of the stand.

I'm also considering one of these:

http://www.homelectrical.com/2-foot...rce=Shopzilla&utm_medium=CSE&utm_campaign=CSE

As for load, I have BM-100 skimmer, return pump (looks like a mag-drive not sure on size, doesn't say on it) probably 2 or 3 power heads (1x Colbalt neo-flow 10,000, 1 or 2 Hydor Koralia), 2x 200w heaters, ATO (relayed Tom's aqualifter), 4x T12 lights with ballast, and 2x 250w MH with ballast. Possible addition of simple 5mm LED Moonlights later down the road. I am hoping to next year upgrade from the T-12s and MH to LED, but that'll have to wait and see what my tax refund is gonna have to go towards first.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Are both wall location on the same branch circuit (same breaker)?

If so, then splitting the load between them is rather pointless.

Load (assuming worst case running Watts):

Skimmer: 25W
Return Pump: 100W
PowerHeads:100W
Heaters: 400W
Lights: 1000W (you did not say how many Watts of T12)

You are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 1600 Watts. A 15A branch circuit (assuming that is what you have) can supply 1800W max and should only be loaded to around 1440W.

In reality your concurrent real world max load will likely be closer to 1400W than 1600W but there is a good chance that you will be pushing the limit of the circuit close enough to the edge that if the MH ballast kicks on while both heaters are on (likely) the circuit breaker will trip due to the inrush current of the ballast.

This all assumes that NOTHING else is on the same branch circuit (highly unlikely). If you have a 20A branch circuit, then you are in much better shape depending on what is also plugged in.

For the sake of moving forward lets assume you have either a 20A branch with sufficient headroom, or (2) 15A branches with enough spare headroom, or a single 15A branch with nothing on it and you cut back on your load by a few watts...

Enlist the help of a qualified person and build a small power distribution box using 4x4 PVC receptacle box or boxes (connected together with PVC conduit). The box(s) will hold your GFCIs behind bubble covers. The SJOOW (#12 or larger) cord can exit the boxes via a cord grip and be terminated with the proper 120V plug.

Another alternative (as mentioned above a few times) is to extend the receptacle by using one or more GFCI equipped outlet strips.

I prefer the DIY GFCI power distribution, simple because it can be built with proper bubble covers and easily mounted in a safe location on the stand using the built in mounting ears. You can opt to use high quality (Leviton commercial) GFCIs and/or quality (Leviton) plug ends, etc.

As mentioned, if you DIY this project, then you MUST enlist the help of an experienced (qualified) person.

 

[Silvergryphon]

Not sure on the wattage on the T-12s, I have 2x 46.5" and 2x 48" both actinic-white. I also looked at the breakers, they only say 10kA on them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The breaker handles with either say 15 or 20...

10kA is the short circuit interrupt rating. That is, the breaker can be slammed with a short that draws up to 10kA (in theory) and still be able to disconnect the load (failure to trip, welding load side to bus side, etc.)

If they are T12 bulbs (VHO), they are roughly 115W each... with ballast say 125 to 150 each.

So worst case maybe 500W for the 4 of them. So the estimate of 1000W for all of your lighting is in the ballpark.

 

[Silvergryphon]

ok, well I have 2x 15 and 2x 20 (vaguely marked of course). I'll have to go through and figure out which one is on that circuit.

 

[Silvergryphon]

Wife isn't happy that we may have to rearrange things...oops LOL