Quick electrical question

[Merman1983]

SilverGryphon, don't be discouraged when you read some of the ridiculous advice on here.
First off, I have to say, that as a renter, you have rights, the same as a homeowner.
A GFCI breaker supercedes the use of an AFCI's. That is why we do not have arc fault breakers in kitchens, garages, hazardous locations, on portable STATIONARY appliances, outdoors, etc, etc, etc... A

 

[Merman1983]

A washing machine, dishwasher, above the stove microwave, are stationary appliances and do not require a GFI or arc fault breaker.
An aquarium cannot be considered a portable appliance, but might be considered a temporary potentially hazardous piece of equipment with numerous appliances connected to a body of water, of which, some of the appliances and apparatus are submerged in that body of water.
Therefore, a GFI in place of an arc fault is a no brainer. Since an arc fault is prone to tripping whenever lightning strikes, or a surge occurs, and is extremely sensitive to appliance usage, and will usually trip when a toaster or heater is used, it is not a good idea to have an arc fault breaker protecting your large body of water with multiple appliances, whether it is considered temporary or permanent.
And since a GFI is used to detect ground fault primarily, but will also trip on overloaded and shorted out circuits, it is not dangerous or hazardous, or irresponsible to change out the arc fault breaker in YOUR HOME, when needed in a special application, such as an aquarium.

 

[BeanAnimal]

...some of the ridiculous advice on here....


...A GFCI breaker supercedes the use of an AFCI's.

In no way does a GFCI circuit breaker "supersede" the use of an AFCI circuit breaker and continuing to insist that it does is extremely irresponsible.

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters detect arcing on a branch circuit and interrupt the current to prevent a fire. Most AFCIs in use to this day DO NOT include true GFCI protection but will trip at somewhere between 30mA and 50mA of fault current. There were some devices sold as COMBINATION AFCI/GFCI units that had both Arc Fault protection and Ground Fault ~5mA threshold). Many of the NEWEST generation of AFCI devices are both AFCI/GFCI devices even though they are not sold as "combination" devices. In that manner an AFCI may (depending on the AHJ and rating) be used in place of a GFCI.

Ground Fault Circuit interrupters DO NOT have any ARC FAULT protection, and therefore CAN NOT be used in place of an AFCI device. PLEASE STOP TELLING PEOPLE THAT THEY CAN BE!

That is why we do not have arc fault breakers in kitchens, garages, hazardous locations, on portable STATIONARY appliances, outdoors, etc, etc, etc... A

No Sir... Arc Fault Circuit Breakers are not (yet) required in these locations because they are so prone to nuisance tripping. If many on the NFPA advisory board had their way, they would be required instead of GFCI breakers, as they add more circuit protection than a GFCI.

If you have the time or desire, then you may want to spend a few days reading and understanding the relevant sections of the 2008 and 2011 NEC codes, as most States are using one or the other. You may also want to spend some time reading at the Mike Holt forums, InterNACHI electrical forum, and reading the NFPA code adoption notes, debates notes and public comments.

You will find that over the last 10 years the NFPA has pushed hard for adoption of both GFCI and then AFCI coverage in most areas of the home and done so with a huge backing of the manufacturers and their lobbyists, as there is a lot of money to be made by the requirements. You will also find that (as mentioned above) MANY local jurisdictions are beginning to hand out waivers and/or rewrite sections of the code to eliminate the need for AFCI (and in some cases even GFCI) in NEC listed areas, due to extremely high rates of nuisance tripping.

Remember the "NEC" is not law, the law is whatever your local jurisdiction adopts. That may be the NEC straight up, or a version amended as they see fit.

First off, I have to say, that as a renter, you have rights, the same as a homeowner.

I have no idea what that is in context to, but nobody has said a renter does not have rights. In some cases they may be the same rights as a homeowner, and in others they are certainly not. Having a GFCI receptacle installed to run an aquarium is certainly not a right. I have a right to tear my walls down and paint my living room pink. A renter does not have that right. They may be given that privilege by their landlord, but hey have no right.

 

[BeanAnimal]

A washing machine, dishwasher, above the stove microwave, are stationary appliances and do not require a GFI or arc fault breaker.

That depends on where you live and what the code says.

When the code explicitly excludes a device, there is a reason. In most cases you can find the reasoning by reading he NFPA notes and public comments, or legal interpretations of the code section. In the case of the appliances mentioned above, the common factor is nuisance tripping and probability of a ground fault danger. The ARC FAULT breakers are left out because they are almost sure to nuisance trip. The GFCI breaker requirement for those devices has been a hot topic of debate for several years and comes closer to reality with every code year.

Therefore, a GFI in place of an arc fault is a no brainer.

While most of us would agree, from a legal standpoint we don't get to make that call. Only the AHJ can make that call, as they are the ones who interpret and enforce the code.

And since a GFI is used to detect ground fault primarily, but will also trip on overloaded and shorted out circuits,

Only if the distinction is a GFCI breaker. A GFCI receptacle HAS NO OVERCURRENT or SHORT CIRCUIT protection. NONE!

it is not dangerous or hazardous, or irresponsible to change out the arc fault breaker in YOUR HOME, when needed in a special application, such as an aquarium.

Again, this is not your call, it is the call of the AHJ. IF code requires an AFCI, then one must be used unless the AHJ waives it. You can not simply substitute a GFCI where you see fit.

 

[Merman1983]

It seems that certain DIY's, AKA, KIA's (know-it alls) on here have severely and tragically distorted fact and theory. Here's a question for you: If an insurance company or politician said to you, "This is right, and here's the reason for it", and they gave you a big line of B.S. to explain why it's required, would you believe that as fact? Because that's exactly how you sound, that's fact, because you read into some electric THEORY!

 

[Merman1983]

There's a theory as to why we use arc faults, the only fact is that we are required to have them. When they first came out, I said that someday, the entire home would be required to have arc faults.
Because really, what's so special about bedrooms and electricity that an arc fault would be required? I spoke with several electrical inspectors about why arc faults are being required, and even attended a few seminars on code changes, use of GFI's and arc faults. They all said a lot of different reasons as to why, but never did it make sense as to why not protect everything with an arc fault breaker.
They said "just make sure all bedroom outlets are protected by an arc fault".
That was in the 1990's, and now we are seeing arc faults being required in most places, but still not in wet or hazardous locations.
I won't go googling "facts" or quote someone else, or copy and paste the NEC on here. What I will do is go by is first hand accounts and on the job training, watching and learning from the masters,
Arc fault breakers were a ridiculous requirement back then, and a waste of money when you look at how much they cost and how unreliable they were, and still are. If you disagree with me, you're entitled to your opinion, but just because you read that they are required does not mean that it is a fact that they will save your life or even that arc fault breakers are the right way to go. The only real fact here is that they are required in many locations, the rest is theory.
The day they can come up with a universal circuit breaker that trips at multiple faults is they day that they get it right.
What you're seeing right now in electrical wiring methods and applications is merely theory being regulated by insurance companies and politics.
I hope theory finds it way to you because without theory, we would be robots, programmed to do things one way, beananimals way.

 

[Merman1983]

"Only if the distinction is a GFCI breaker. A GFCI receptacle HAS NO OVERCURRENT or SHORT CIRCUIT protection. NONE!"

Bean, Did you just say a GFCI has no overcurrent protection or no short circuit protection? No there sir, you are wrong, very wrong. Please stick with what you do best, I admire you for that, but when it comes to electrical, you're way out of your league.

 

[Merman1983]

I never said a GFI receptacle had overcurrent protection.

 

[Merman1983]

Please get your facts straight, and stick with the aquarium questions, you sound like a frustrated child.

 

[SGT_York]

Woa, tone it down!

Also never recommend someone to remove a breaker in an apartment, only a qualified electrician or the home owner (with exceptions) can remove a breaker a renter that removes a breaker is liable to face criminal charges. Same issue with an outlet box.

AFCI is irrelevant to our uses in an aquarium, there is no reason to use AFCI and it will cause issues with older powerheads, heaters, ATO, and electronic ballasts (older powerheads are brush/brushless debate)

The reason AFCI's exist is if your connections or wiring is beginning to short it will trip, shorts can be caused by connections in the wiring which causes the wires to heat up and start a fire. Traditional breakers will stop most of these fires but small (arc's) won't. So it's a great idea to put them everywhere, however most of your appliances need arc's to work, motors, electronics, microwaves, will all trip the AFCI so we don't use them in areas that are likely to have natural arcs, so we are limited to bedrooms and living areas that use clocks, lamps, and the occasional vaccum. (old vaccum's may trip the afci)

GFCI's exist to stop your grandmother's hairdryer or TV from falling into a bathtub and killing the occupant. The water creates the short which trips the GFCI and stops the current.

Two completely different usages, AFCI stops fires, GFCI stops electrocutions. If AFCI could work in an aquarium it would be a good idea but it doesn't so don't do it. If you couldn't tell by the above I strongly support BeanAnimal's stance on this post.

Back to the OP's question, if you combine two separate branch circuits (breakers) into one outlet you will need a special outlet or break the joining metal between the two. I personally have never seen a GFCI outlet that can separate the top and bottom outlet. Probably best to purchase a two gang box add that to your stand and run each outlet to a different branch. (feel free to ask questions)

 

[BeanAnimal]

Mr. Merman,

I have kindly responded to your posts and in context to the conversation. A cordial dialog is welcome; however, name calling and personal attacks are not acceptable here.

The general focus of my responses to you have been regarding your continued insistence that a GFCI circuit breaker can be substituted where an AFCI circuit breaker is required by code, something that is simply not the case (in context to code OR function). If you can cite a code section that disputes this fact and supports your claim, then please post it.

I have stated (in response to your remarks) that where an AFCI is required by code and one wishes to forego its use, or substitute a GFCI, then either a locally adopted code or the AHJ would have to bless such a scenario. This is a simple fact of following the law.

If we ignore the code requirement and legal component and speak purely on the merits of the devices, then replacing an AFCI breaker with a GFCI breaker is certainly a safer option than replacing the AFCI breaker with a simple circuit breaker. Nobody here as argued any differently and that simple fact is what has helped bolster the movement whereby many jurisdictions are allowing AFCI waivers in certain conditions where the AFCI can be shown to be a nuisance.

In fact, there is a similar movement to ease (by local code or waiver) some of the GFCI requirements as well. Here is a recent example from Virginia: http://www.nema.org/Technical/Code-Alerts/Pages/21-November-Virginia.aspx The argument is simple, currently GFCIs are required in garage spaces, regardless of what they power. The housing board sees an issue where many homeowners have refrigeration units in their garages that are exposed to nuisance trips, as well as garage door openers that should be excluded.

You indicated that GFCIs have overcurrent and short circuit protection. I clarified your statement (it was ambiguous, even in context) by pointing out that GFCI circuit breakers have overcurrent/short protection but GFCI receptacles DO NOT. This fact was presented for the clarity of those who may still be following along.

RE: Your views on AFCI, the origin of their mandate, political and financial contexts, etc. I think if you go back and read my remarks (and those of others) in this thread and similar threads, you will find that most of us are not proponents of broad scope of the current code mandate. As to the question of their ability to detect an arc, they do work, albeit so well that they are a nuisance in many environments.

Regarding the "advice" in this thread:

We are dealing with a very simple situation, a renter that needs to power an aquarium. His options are to ask the landlord to extend or install a branch circuit, something that would almost surely trigger an AFCI requirement. He may wish to do this, but the outcome is fairly predictable and not favorable. His other option is to extend the circuit to his aquarium stand using some type of extension cord. The safest way for him to do this is to buy or build a cord with GFCI protection. In that context, multiple GFCIs will be safer for his aquarium inhabitants than a single GFCI (be it at either end of the cord). The advice in this thread (from almost all of the posters) has evolved to reach this same logical conclusion.

 

[Merman1983]

Well, finally we all agree on something. That arc faults are no damn good for protecting aquariums. It is not logical to protect aquariums and it's equipment with an arc fault, not only is it not logical to do so, but it is also likely to have nuisance tripping.
Amazing how I could come up with all of this without copying and pasting from the NEC or googling information and passing it on.
Do the right thing and remove that arc fault breaker whenever you have expensive aquariums and accessories, and livestock involved.

 

[SGT_York]

Only in your home, as a renter do not make any changes to the electrical wiring in your apartment including circuit breakers. Many cities further restrict who can change out a breaker and most of those require a city inspector to validate the work was done to code and within the scope of your city permit as well.

IMO don't replace a AFCI with a non AFCI breaker unless running additional circuits is not an option.

 

[ptreef]

Tell the neighbors to be sure the renters insurance is paid up! haha

Look at the GFCI powerstrips like at Lowes or HD.

Or get something like KCF posted. Also be sure to keep under like 11A per circuit to be safe in the apt. Assuming each circuit is 15A not 20A

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well, finally we all agree on something....

I am not sure you have actually taken the time to read what has been posted, in favor of simply firing off a reply to be confrontational.

If you go back and take a look:

In post #20 sleepydoc indicates that upgrading the apartment branch circuit will likely trigger the code requirement for the use of an AFCI. The context is that this is wholly undesirable.

In Post #26 you say: "Seeing that arc fault breakers and GFCI breakers do the same thing and will trip for the exact same reasons, installing a GFI breaker in place of an arc fault breaker where a GFI breaker is needed wouldn't be considered a code violation, but actually a requirement."

At that point, several of us attempted to correct your statement. AFCI and GFCI devices do not do the same thing and replacing a code-required AFCI with a GFCI is most certainly a code violation.

In Post #31 I say: "Arc Fault Circuit Breakers (ignoring code requirements) are not well suited to aquarium use, and are extremely prone to nuisance tripping. In fact, they are so problematic that many jurisdictions are starting to hand out waivers in situations where the homeowner, electrician or inspector demonstrates that the NEC required AFCI is a nuisance." I reiterate the same sentiment numerous times over the last 2 pages, as do a few other posters.

Amazing how I could come up with all of this without copying and pasting from the NEC or googling information and passing it on.

I don't know that any of the informed posters here have cut and pasted from the NEC or had to "google" for an answer. Furthermore, none of us engaged you in a debate about the suitability of AFCIs for aquarium use, we simply attempted to correct your statements regarding their function and code requirements.

To that end, you did not spell out your distaste for AFCIs until your rant last evening in post #66 and you did so with the incorrect inference that myself and others are proponents of using AFCIs on aquariums.

As I mentioned back in post #18, if you wish to participate in a conversation or debate, then it would benefit you to read the comments of those your are engaged with and respond in context. Your posts here appear to show that you really have not read what others have posted in favor of simply being combative.

Do the right thing and remove that arc fault breaker whenever you have expensive aquariums and accessories, and livestock involved.

This has already been covered several times in this thread. While most of us agree that an AFCI can be an unacceptable nuisance, and we avoid them when possible, it is irresponsible to openly advise removal of such a device where it is required by code. You are advising people to break the law and possibly jeopardize their safety, that of their family and/or create an insurance liability that may leave them uncovered or render them criminally responsible in the event of a disaster.

As a homeowner, doing the "right thing" is asking the AHJ for a variance or waiver based on the hardship caused by the AFCI. The simple act of being granted a waiver removes the above liability. As a renter, there really is no option.

 

[Merman1983]

Bean, thanks for trying ti correct my spelling on the word "supercede" . But if you look it up, you will find that both spellings of the word are correct. Supercede and supersede. Thank you for artempting to prove that you're aways right, when in fact, you are not always right. Now just give ut up and stick withbthe aquarium questions, because when it comes to electrical wiring and spelling, you're way out of your league. Don't get all huffy because you're wrong, just suck it up and take it like a man. Ever since my first post on this site you have personally attacked me, pointing out typos and speaking nonsense. Who are yoy trying to impress by pointing out spelling errors? Is that what toy do when someone has the unmitigated audacity to disagree with you? Can't someone disagree with your opinion without becoming a victim? LOL!

 

[Merman1983]

I had typos, yes. I'm writing from a cell phone and removing arc fault breakers as we speak.

 

[Merman1983]

I spelled the word 'to' wrong.

 

[SGT_York]

The typos are not the issue, it's your blatant insulting and condescending tone while not producing a single reason why your statements are factually correct. You have made several aggregiously wrong comments that raise the question of your electrical understanding and therefor your capacity to provide valid input.

You were wrong on several occassions as pointed out and have yet to provide a feasible alternative that is within the restrictions of the law and within the scope of the original poster's situation.

Pasting from the NEC is to provide source material to the debate not to gloat, when dealing with statute, opinions or theory are irrelevant the laws are.

 

[BrianD]

The typos are not the issue, it's your blatant insulting and condescending tone while not producing a single reason why your statements are factually correct. You have made several aggregiously wrong comments that raise the question of your electrical understanding and therefor your capacity to provide valid input.

You were wrong on several occassions as pointed out and have yet to provide a feasible alternative that is within the restrictions of the law and within the scope of the original poster's situation.

Pasting from the NEC is to provide source material to the debate not to gloat, when dealing with statute, opinions or theory are irrelevant the laws are.

Merman, read this about 5 times. If you choose to post again on this thread, it should be in a respectful and mature fashion, something your previous posts on this thread are sorely lacking in.