Reefsavvy's Ghost Overflow: Patent Pending?

[acesq]

Here's another way of looking at it: what percentage of the cost of a hand crafted tank is in the materials as compared to equivalent level hand crafted cabinetry?

The only reason why I have never considered building my own tank is that I figure I would save so little it would not be worth the time and hassle of buying glass and putting it together. As for fine custom cabinetry, the pride in building something would be worth alot of effort, but I have no illusions about my ability to do it. :hmm5:

You finish carpenters don't sell yourselves short here.

And don't think I have no respect for custom tank manufacturers, I have a 340 with PVC bottom and external overflow coming from A.G.E. next week. I was willing to pay a premium for the A.G.E. quality, both in fit and finish, but more importantly, in performance -- I can't have 340 gallons of water end up on my floor!! :bounce3:

 

[Drae]

Among other things, I am a woodworker with a good deal of skill. I build high-end furniture, and teach others to do it.

What I'd tell you is that while it sounds straightforward to build a box out of 5 panels (whether they be panels of glass or of wood) is not easy, at least to get a result that has no visible defects and is worthy of displaying in your living room.

Glass makes it all the more difficult - I can hand-plane a slightly out-size member of that 5-panel group in 3-thousandths steps until it fits all the others exactly. With glass, the only way to do that is with abrasives - you can use a edge sander with a hard aluminum oxide belt, or a really expensive CNC controlled diamond machine.

Either way, to get a really first-class, quality aquarium that not only holds water, but is absolutely 90 degrees on every corner, all edges are polished, all panes line up on the top, and with no silicone slop anywhere takes a good deal of skill and hard work. That's one reason that a marineland tank is $600 and the same size rimless Elos is $3000.

I agree 100%. I have built tanks, cabinets, furniture etc.. There is plenty of skill involved in building a visually appealing aquarium for sure. Working with silicone takes some getting used to. Plus without my carpentry knowledge of square, plumb, and level it would've been next to impossible to properly put an aquarium together and get all panels to line up within a 1/32" and get the silicone to stay that perfect 1/16" that tank builders strive for. A.G.E, reef savvy, miracles etc charge a premium for a reason.

 

[acesq]

I agree 100%. I have built tanks, cabinets, furniture etc.. There is plenty of skill involved in building a visually appealing aquarium for sure. Working with silicone takes some getting used to. Plus without my carpentry knowledge of square, plumb, and level it would've been next to impossible to properly put an aquarium together and get all panels to line up within a 1/32" and get the silicone to stay that perfect 1/16" that tank builders strive for. A.G.E, reef savvy, miracles etc charge a premium for a reason.

Respect, Drae. I'll defer to your experience. That said, the tank guys use clamps and jigs (or some such things) to hold the panels off 1/16". That can't be hard. What you're telling me is that custom cabinetry isn't that hard either, yes?

 

[NeveSSL]

Really? You've set 60 pound sheets of glass up to all be 1/16" apart on multiple surfaces with clamps and jigs, and you didn't think it was that hard? Or... you've never done it and are completely speculating its not that hard, even when someone with experience who has done it is telling you it is?

Brandon

 

[Drae]

Respect, Drae. I'll defer to your experience. That said, the tank guys use clamps and jigs (or some such things) to hold the panels off 1/16". That can't be hard. What you're telling me is that custom cabinetry isn't that hard either, yes?

To me it's the knowledge and experience that makes things easier to do. What I once thought was difficult to do in 2002 ( when I joined the local carpenters union) is cake now because of the help I got from guys that had been carpenters for 50 years. Same goes with building a tank. The science behind it is basic and not rocket but the process is not easy at all. I would've messed up a dozen or more times if not for the help of an experienced glazier that had built tanks before for a major manufacturer who clued me in on a few tips and tricks of the trade. I respect the craftsmanship of a quality custom aquarium builder to the 10th degree. Plenty of first time builders DIY their stands with awesome results but how many could get those same results building a tank?

 

[afishionado]

Custom glass aquarium manufacturing, finished to industry standard specifications, is an art/science that would only be underestimated by those who have no legitimate experience/knowledge ...

Sloppily siliconing a few .246" panes together, for a custom osmolator reservoir or otherwise, does not constitute experience/knowledge in this esteemed specialty.

Also, to clear up conspicuous misinformation, rimless aquarium manufacturing is engineered to a safety factor spec of 7.6+, not of 5 !

 

[acesq]

To me it's the knowledge and experience that makes things easier to do. What I once thought was difficult to do in 2002 ( when I joined the local carpenters union) is cake now because of the help I got from guys that had been carpenters for 50 years. Same goes with building a tank. The science behind it is basic and not rocket but the process is not easy at all. I would've messed up a dozen or more times if not for the help of an experienced glazier that had built tanks before for a major manufacturer who clued me in on a few tips and tricks of the trade. I respect the craftsmanship of a quality custom aquarium builder to the 10th degree. Plenty of first time builders DIY their stands with awesome results but how many could get those same results building a tank?

I'm going to say the same number or more just because you buy everything precut and there are so fewer parts to put together. Have you seen the DIY tank build thread? All of the ones I've seen were remarkably well done. But that brings us back to the original question .....:crazy1:

The answer to the economic question I posed is to me the final word: is there more money in labor for a custom tank or a custom cabinet? I suspect there is more in a fine custom cabinet than a fine custom tank, but I admit it is only my guess.

Regardless the answer I think we all agree that craftsmanship is to be respected.

 

[MstgKillr]

Imho

Imho

So Reefsavvy just "released" their Ghost overflow.
I run Beans overflow in all my tanks, and couldn't help but notice:
*The surface skimming of the Coast to coast weir is missing from the Ghost.
* The Ghost employs a short box with an inordinately deep notch( an attempt at a weir?) that is essentially rendered obsolete by the addition of the slotted teeth covering that is a critical part of the Ghost overflow
*The deep notch lowers the water in the display significantly
*Display water travels through bulkheads instead of just flowing over the weir, eliminating your would-be surface skimming.
*The airline to trigger the open channel into a full siphon is missing?
*And lastly: the Ghost overflow is "patent pending"? I'm loosely familiar with the patent process, as I just filled a PPA of my own, and I'm just curious: How is your Non Provisional patent going to be granted/ hold water on a standpipe design that someone else ( Bean) came up with years ago, and a grossly superior design at that? What is being patented? The removable teeth box? Because if said patent attempt involves any of the standpipe design, If Im not mistaken, even if Bean didn't lock down the utility patent it's still considered prior art.

I should note that I'm not trying to flame RS, I simply couldn't resist at pointing out some of the design flaws in their, to quote Aquanerd's blog " GameChanging New Overflow."

Comments welcome

-OG

The deep notch weir teeth are by design. I assume that you've seen the Ghost overflow in person but may have failed to notice the amount of water above bottom of the teeth, the overflow is indeed surface skimming. The deep notch weir teeth is an additional safety measure to prevent an overflow due to any type of weir blockage. The water level will rise until the overflow resumes flowing and the blockage can be cleaned.

The water level in Reef Savvy's tanks are slightly lower by design which helps prevent water from splashing out over the sides. If Felix or the customer wanted the water level higher, simple adjustments can be made. Eventually the magnetic weir cover may come in multiple teeth depths to quickly change the water level in the tank by simply changing the cover.

The water traveling through the bulkheads doesn't change characteristics of the skimming efficiency.

I'm a carpenter by trade ( finish and framing) so I have an eye for craftsmanship and Felix builds the best tanks I've ever seen in person. His skills are superb and second to none imo.

I completely agree! I went to MACNA with an open mind and there wasn't a tank there that was even in the same category as Reef Savvy. Reef Savvy's tanks were perfect! I had the opportunity to see many of the so called top manufacturers and I was very disappointed especially with AGE. The AGE tanks that I saw had uneven silicone and misaligned panels, something I didn't expect after reading so much about them. Actually, the DSA tanks were built better than the AGE. The Tanked guys weren't even close.

Reef Savvy does build nice tanks. No argument there. But what I've realized after ordering maybe a half dozen custom tanks over the years is that its all the same glass, especially if you're ordering Starphire( from PPG)
These tank manufacturers are simply getting the panes cut by a glazier, siliconing them together and cutting some holes. So while the siliconing integrity and simple math required to cut some holes in the right places needs to be present, I'm not sure if I'd compare the skill level to that of a carpenter for example, who's working from scratch.

You're crazy. If it was so easy Reef Savvy would have a competitor and right now there isn't anyone that can compete in quality. They also had the best aquarium stands on display that I have ever seen in person.

Here's another way of looking at it: what percentage of the cost of a hand crafted tank is in the materials as compared to equivalent level hand crafted cabinetry?

The only reason why I have never considered building my own tank is that I figure I would save so little it would not be worth the time and hassle of buying glass and putting it together. As for fine custom cabinetry, the pride in building something would be worth alot of effort, but I have no illusions about my ability to do it. :hmm5:

You finish carpenters don't sell yourselves short here.

And don't think I have no respect for custom tank manufacturers, I have a 340 with PVC bottom and external overflow coming from A.G.E. next week. I was willing to pay a premium for the A.G.E. quality, both in fit and finish, but more importantly, in performance -- I can't have 340 gallons of water end up on my floor!! :bounce3:

IMHO, you should have paid the difference for a Reef Savvy.

 

[NeveSSL]

I'm going to say the same number or more just because you buy everything precut and there are so fewer parts to put together. Have you seen the DIY tank build thread? All of the ones I've seen were remarkably well done. But that brings us back to the original question .....:crazy1:

The answer to the economic question I posed is to me the final word: is there more money in labor for a custom tank or a custom cabinet? I suspect there is more in a fine custom cabinet than a fine custom tank, but I admit it is only my guess.

Regardless the answer I think we all agree that craftsmanship is to be respected.

The economic question... lets take a look at that.

For a custom 120g tank, I have been quoted around $3,000 before. 3 sides starphire, standard bottom.

Lets take glass costs. I can use 3/8" glass safely and I'll eurobrace. 3/8 plate glass from Glass Cages is $6 per square foot.

I need 8 for the bottom of the tank (2'x4'). $48
Another one for the back. $48
Starphire is twice the price. $96 for the front, another $96 for both ends.
Eurobracing... lets estimate 3" eurobrace all the way around... so we'll say 3 sq ft, very roughly. Another $18.

$306 in glass. Vs $3,000 quote.

Pretty significant difference in price. I think custom cabinetry for a tank is usually around the same price. The price of wood? Significantly more expensive.

Brandon

 

[acesq]

The economic question... lets take a look at that.

For a custom 120g tank, I have been quoted around $3,000 before. 3 sides starphire, standard bottom.

Lets take glass costs. I can use 3/8" glass safely and I'll eurobrace. 3/8 plate glass from Glass Cages is $6 per square foot.

I need 8 for the bottom of the tank (2'x4'). $48
Another one for the back. $48
Starphire is twice the price. $96 for the front, another $96 for both ends.
Eurobracing... lets estimate 3" eurobrace all the way around... so we'll say 3 sq ft, very roughly. Another $18.

$306 in glass. Vs $3,000 quote.

Pretty significant difference in price. I think custom cabinetry for a tank is usually around the same price. The price of wood? Significantly more expensive.

Brandon

$3000 for a 120??? I'm sure you said no thank you. And I find it difficult to believe.

As to your math, you are mixing your examples. You need to tell us how much are the materials in the $3000 tank, not the $1/gallon petco tank you make yourself.

For a correct comparison, look at what Glass Cages sells that 120 starfire for that $306 in materials -- $564. Yup, they charge a whopping $250 for the labor, overhead and profit. The labor part has to be $100 or so. I will guarantee you that for a custom cabinet, no craftsman is going to charge $100 in labor.

To be fair, we are talking about a low end aquarium manufacturer, and I know A.G.E. charges much more for their labor component, but it's your example. Bottom line is you haven't made a compelling argument that a custom cabinet maker charges less for its labor than a custom tank maker.

 

[dkeller_nc]

I'm afraid glass cages tanks are not good examples of good craftsmanship, at least not the ones I've seen in person. And the trick with glass is that you can indeed buy 1/2" Starphire for about $15 a square foot, but it will simply not be close enough in dimension for anything other than a "holds water" tank.

When you need to size that glass to get an Elos, Reef Savvy or other high-end tank, you can pretty much double or even triple the square foot cost to get dimensional consistency within 1/32nd". Edge-polishing will cost you about $0.75 per linear foot. Chamfering the edges will run about $1 per linear foot.

But to the point, it isn't the materials that makes a fine piece of furniture expensive, nor a show-stopper aquarium. It isn't even the direct labor, though that certainly adds cost. What costs the big bucks is knowledge, experience, design aesthetic, and guarantees.

As an example, I get about $3500 for a 5-shelf bookcase in mahogany, 60" tall by 3.5 feet wide. That's with a standard 6-coat laquer or shellac semi-matte finish. If the finish is to be hand-rubbed gloss laquer, add another $1500. If the case requires glazed doors, hinges and locks, add another $3k. So here's what I tell folks (this happens often) that ask me to build a bookcase and expect about $400 because they're totaling up the materials in their head and are comparing it to a mass-produced one in the store: they are better off just going to Unfinished Furniture and buying a factory-made piece if their objective is to "hold books". If they hate painting, I offer to shoot 3 coats of latex on it for $300.

The only reason to get me to build a bookcase is if you want a showpiece for your living room or study, you want it made of a particular species, to your dimensions and to your specified style and finish.

Same with aquariums. Marineland's tanks will hold water, and will still impress your guests with the contents. But it ain't the same animal as an Elos or a Reef Savvy.

 

[Drae]

I'm afraid glass cages tanks are not good examples of good craftsmanship, at least not the ones I've seen in person. And the trick with glass is that you can indeed buy 1/2" Starphire for about $15 a square foot, but it will simply not be close enough in dimension for anything other than a "holds water" tank.

When you need to size that glass to get an Elos, Reef Savvy or other high-end tank, you can pretty much double or even triple the square foot cost to get dimensional consistency within 1/32nd". Edge-polishing will cost you about $0.75 per linear foot. Chamfering the edges will run about $1 per linear foot.

But to the point, it isn't the materials that makes a fine piece of furniture expensive, nor a show-stopper aquarium. It isn't even the direct labor, though that certainly adds cost. What costs the big bucks is knowledge, experience, design aesthetic, and guarantees.

As an example, I get about $3500 for a 5-shelf bookcase in mahogany, 60" tall by 3.5 feet wide. That's with a standard 6-coat laquer or shellac semi-matte finish. If the finish is to be hand-rubbed gloss laquer, add another $1500. If the case requires glazed doors, hinges and locks, add another $3k. So here's what I tell folks (this happens often) that ask me to build a bookcase and expect about $400 because they're totaling up the materials in their head and are comparing it to a mass-produced one in the store: they are better off just going to Unfinished Furniture and buying a factory-made piece if their objective is to "hold books". If they hate painting, I offer to shoot 3 coats of latex on it for $300.

The only reason to get me to build a bookcase is if you want a showpiece for your living room or study, you want it made of a particular species, to your dimensions and to your specified style and finish.

Same with aquariums. Marineland's tanks will hold water, and will still impress your guests with the contents. But it ain't the same animal as an Elos or a Reef Savvy.

Well said! I agree 100%

 

[NeveSSL]

$3000 for a 120??? I'm sure you said no thank you. And I find it difficult to believe.

As to your math, you are mixing your examples. You need to tell us how much are the materials in the $3000 tank, not the $1/gallon petco tank you make yourself.

For a correct comparison, look at what Glass Cages sells that 120 starfire for that $306 in materials -- $564. Yup, they charge a whopping $250 for the labor, overhead and profit. The labor part has to be $100 or so. I will guarantee you that for a custom cabinet, no craftsman is going to charge $100 in labor.

To be fair, we are talking about a low end aquarium manufacturer, and I know A.G.E. charges much more for their labor component, but it's your example. Bottom line is you haven't made a compelling argument that a custom cabinet maker charges less for its labor than a custom tank maker.

I am talking about the materials in the $3,000 tank. Is Starphire not Starphire? Is glass not glass? I'm not aware of any super glass the high end manufacturers are using. How is that mixing examples? I think you're confused because I used Glass-Cages glass prices (just glass...) for this example. I said nothing of their tanks.

The fact that Glass-Cages does this for $250 is PRECISELY my point. Thank you for making it for me. They make regular tanks, and charge a little bit for doing so. The higher end guys charge SIGNIFICANTLY more, and people pay it for a reason. I'll give you a hint... its not because its easy to make them this well built with a few jigs and clamps. Why would you compare them to a finish carpenter?

Bottom line is that you didn't read or understand my example. On top of that, if someone who has experience on both sides of the fence we're arguing about says tanks take a lot of craftsmanship to build the way these guys do, I can't help but think we should both listen.

Brandon

 

[acesq]

I'm afraid glass cages tanks are not good examples of good craftsmanship, at least not the ones I've seen in person. And the trick with glass is that you can indeed buy 1/2" Starphire for about $15 a square foot, but it will simply not be close enough in dimension for anything other than a "holds water" tank.

When you need to size that glass to get an Elos, Reef Savvy or other high-end tank, you can pretty much double or even triple the square foot cost to get dimensional consistency within 1/32nd". Edge-polishing will cost you about $0.75 per linear foot. Chamfering the edges will run about $1 per linear foot.

But to the point, it isn't the materials that makes a fine piece of furniture expensive, nor a show-stopper aquarium. It isn't even the direct labor, though that certainly adds cost. What costs the big bucks is knowledge, experience, design aesthetic, and guarantees.

As an example, I get about $3500 for a 5-shelf bookcase in mahogany, 60" tall by 3.5 feet wide. That's with a standard 6-coat laquer or shellac semi-matte finish. If the finish is to be hand-rubbed gloss laquer, add another $1500. If the case requires glazed doors, hinges and locks, add another $3k. So here's what I tell folks (this happens often) that ask me to build a bookcase and expect about $400 because they're totaling up the materials in their head and are comparing it to a mass-produced one in the store: they are better off just going to Unfinished Furniture and buying a factory-made piece if their objective is to "hold books". If they hate painting, I offer to shoot 3 coats of latex on it for $300.

The only reason to get me to build a bookcase is if you want a showpiece for your living room or study, you want it made of a particular species, to your dimensions and to your specified style and finish.

Same with aquariums. Marineland's tanks will hold water, and will still impress your guests with the contents. But it ain't the same animal as an Elos or a Reef Savvy.

Agreed. My point exactly on the finish carpentry. Now tell me the processes that Elos and Reefsavvy do that compare to your $4500 bookcase.

 

[acesq]

I am talking about the materials in the $3,000 tank. Is Starphire not Starphire? Is glass not glass? I'm not aware of any super glass the high end manufacturers are using. How is that mixing examples? I think you're confused because I used Glass-Cages glass prices (just glass...) for this example. I said nothing of their tanks.

The fact that Glass-Cages does this for $250 is PRECISELY my point. Thank you for making it for me. They make regular tanks, and charge a little bit for doing so. The higher end guys charge SIGNIFICANTLY more, and people pay it for a reason. I'll give you a hint... its not because its easy to make them this well built with a few jigs and clamps. Why would you compare them to a finish carpenter?

Bottom line is that you didn't read or understand my example. On top of that, if someone who has experience on both sides of the fence we're arguing about says tanks take a lot of craftsmanship to build the way these guys do, I can't help but think we should both listen.

Brandon

The problem with your argument that Brandon is that it doesn't make much sense. You have yet to explain why Reefsavvy charges more. Is it because they put more skilled labor into it or something else.
As to taking dcKeller's point, I have. He explained the craftsmanship required to build a high end cabinet. Which is exactly what I have been saying.

 

[NeveSSL]

I apologize profusely. I assume too much, too often.

Yes, it is the skill involved in building the aquarium that makes it so expensive. That is why I compared the cost of the materials to the cost of the tank and the massive markup involved.

Brandon

 

[NeveSSL]

Agreed. My point exactly on the finish carpentry. Now tell me the processes that Elos and Reefsavvy do that compare to your $4500 bookcase.

He already has... a couple of times. :rolleye1: Lets recap:

...
But to the point, it isn't the materials that makes a fine piece of furniture expensive, nor a show-stopper aquarium. It isn't even the direct labor, though that certainly adds cost. What costs the big bucks is knowledge, experience, design aesthetic, and guarantees. ...

... But the high-end manufacturers go far beyond this - they grind and polish the panels to a very high degree of precision, and this costs serious money.

...

Either way, to get a really first-class, quality aquarium that not only holds water, but is absolutely 90 degrees on every corner, all edges are polished, all panes line up on the top, and with no silicone slop anywhere takes a good deal of skill and hard work. That's one reason that a marineland tank is $600 and the same size rimless Elos is $3000.

Brandon

 

[acesq]

He already has... a couple of times. :rolleye1: Lets recap:








Brandon

If that's it, then my point is made. It takes much more craftsmanship, that is, skilled labor, to build a fine cabinet. With high end aquariums you are paying for other things which I agree are important and valuable. As I said I am paying a premium price for a 340 AGE. I am also paying a premium price for the cabinetry. The labor that will go into building the cabinet is many man hours more than the tank. Both products are worth their price, but for different reasons.

Simple point. Why it's so hard for you to understand is beyond me.

 

[NeveSSL]

At the end of the day, I think you and I just define craftsmanship differently.

Brandon

 

[Overgrown]

The deep notch weir teeth are by design. I assume that you've seen the Ghost overflow in person but may have failed to notice the amount of water above bottom of the teeth, the overflow is indeed surface skimming. The deep notch weir teeth is an additional safety measure to prevent an overflow due to any type of weir blockage. The water level will rise until the overflow resumes flowing and the blockage can be cleaned.

An extremely loaded statement that purports to justify the (inhibiting) factors of teeth in an overflow, all the while ignoring some very basic physics. "The amount of water above bottom of teeth?" Naturally when you are " damming up" your main display, the water in limbo, waiting to be turned over is going to rise. A rise up the slotted overflow does not equate to equal turnover as in a smooth weir design. So while yes, there is some surface skimming present, there is less than that of a smooth weir, and even less in a slotted overflow that is not full length.

The water level in Reef Savvy's tanks are slightly lower by design which helps prevent water from splashing out over the sides. If Felix or the customer wanted the water level higher, simple adjustments can be made. Eventually the magnetic weir cover may come in multiple teeth depths to quickly change the water level in the tank by simply changing the cover.

Personal opinion: a waterline in a display below 1" is unsightly. The beauty of the standard application of a coast to coast smooth weir BA is that you can run significantly more flow while keeping your waterline just below the rim. I also prefer a Eurobrace even when not structurally required, simply for flow allowance with no worries of spillover.

The water traveling through the bulkheads doesn't change characteristics of the skimming efficiency.

As it relates to the Ghost overflow, this is true: the surface skimming was already inhibited behind the teeth in the display well before it reached the bulkheads.

I completely agree! I went to MACNA with an open mind and there wasn't a tank there that was even in the same category as Reef Savvy. Reef Savvy's tanks were perfect! I had the opportunity to see many of the so called top manufacturers and I was very disappointed especially with AGE. The AGE tanks that I saw had uneven silicone and misaligned panels, something I didn't expect after reading so much about them. Actually, the DSA tanks were built better than the AGE. The Tanked guys weren't even close.

I haven't suggested that they don't make nice tanks and pay attention to detail, and am enjoying reading the current discussion on tank craftsmanship in general. The main intent of the thread was centered on the amusingly touted " Gamechanging New Overflow" that has been introduced to the hobby, the contrary reality of its design limitations compared to a standard Beananimal, and the associated provisional patent content.

You're crazy. If it was so easy Reef Savvy would have a competitor and right now there isn't anyone that can compete in quality. They also had the best aquarium stands on display that I have ever seen in person.

Again, they piece together some killer tanks, and their silicone skills are solid. The aquarium construction vs. tank construction topic is more of an aside, although an interesting one at that.

IMHO, you should have paid the difference for a Reef Savvy.

To offer an example from a single personal experience, I quoted my current main display ( 225, 3 sided Starphire, Starphire Euro, black back with 5 holes cut for a C2C Bean) through ReefSavvy as well as Lee Mar.
ReefSavvy: 3500
Lee Mar : 1700
Pane measurements were dead on, the bevels and holes are absolutely flawless and the silicone is clean.
Any speculation or conjecture on supposed value/ validation for that sizeable of a price differential, when it's literally the same calibre of beveled Glass( Starphire is a brand, diamond beveling is a standard glazier procedure), well I'll leave that
compelling argument to someone else.