RODI -go green! no more waste water!

Those kati/ani systems from europe are nothing more than a separate bed di system.
Russ

With all due respect, that comes across as a little dismissive and self serving.

I do not have a kati/ani system, and no skin in this game.

I recognize their are pros and cons to the various systems, but to the topic at hand, it is my understanding the kati/ani systems are one of the best ways to reduce waste water.

I do not say eliminate, since the recharge process generates waste water.
 
Didn't mean it to be. My point was that all they are is a container for cation resin, and another container for anion resin - typically known as a separate bed DI system.
 
Let's say you have a 75 gpd membrane. During winter, you could go with a 50 gpd capillary restrictor, and trim it shorter if needed to get to a 4 to 1. Because nearly all of the restriction occurs in about 1/4 of the motion of a ball valve, they aren't a good choice. An adjustable restrictor/needle valve is an option:

NeedleValve.gif


Russ

Thanks Russ!
 
Great point..

Great point..

This might work for folks with soft water sources, but where I am a DI cartridge on its own might only last 30-50 gallons because our water has 200-300ppm calcium out of the tap. Hardness is like around 17-20 dGH in my parts due to limestone bedrock... I used a strictly DI based filter for a while (AP Tap Water Purifier) and it makes about 30 gallons of water from the tap for $30 cartridge. That is completely out of the question and FAR more expensive than an RO/DI system. Water is dirt cheap(edit:relatively cheap compared to dry regions of NA) where I am; Ontario has more freshwater than most of the world, so its pretty inexpensive.

I'm sure it would work just fine in Northern Ontario, where bedrock is granite and the water is soft as a baby's bottom. Moot point though; the water is still pure enough to use straight from the tap in those parts. :D I'm sure there are certain places where this method would be similar in cost to a RO/DI system.

What I'm trying to say here is that the effectiveness of a system like this is highly dependant on the qualities of your source water.

Also, if you are using large amounts of DI resin - deinfately check out recharging them, its not difficult and can be done many many times to the same resin.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-09/nftt/index.php
 
Please post a video of the whole set up.. :)

Please post a video of the whole set up.. :)

I have been away from RC for awhile lol...More details and a simple diagram when I get home from work tonight.



acropora1981- You make some good points about the source water, but I dont think you can compare my filter set up to the crappy AP tap water purifier. The Prefilter before the DI is very very limited. And that is the trick with a set up like mine you must have extensive prefiltration before the DI.

Also I just wanted to point out that my father inlaw has extensive knowledge in Water filtration, he works at TMI on giant rodi systems for the power plant - he helped me set this up. Even though my water source is not very hard. He installed a top of the line water softer at our house so this helps also, since I tap into the source after the Water softner.

ttyl peeps
 
I don’t understand why people waste there time, water, and money with RO filters.

Green maybe, if fresh water is a concern where you live (it isn't everywhere). Anywhere the water goes back into a freshwater system (like the Mississippi or one of the Great Lakes, avoiding water use by using extra chemicals (those needed to make and recharge the resins, for instance) isn't necessarily green.

Cost? Don't agree. You'd be more convincing if you actually had cost numbers to compare, rather than stating something as fact when many of us disagree with it.

The use of an RO membrane cuts down the DI resin costs by a factor of 10-50. In my system, and especially in larger systems, the initial cost of an RO membrane is low compared to the cost of all the resins needed over time. Yes, you may be willing to recharge resins yourself, but you need to figure all the time involved. My time is worth a lot more than I can make back recharging resins myself. :)

Time? I would instantly assume the opposite if you mean the time an aquarist spends on something (which is the primary time factor, IMO), especially if you recharge the resins yourself. Time needed to make a batch of water is immaterial, if you turn it on and come back the next day to a filled reservoir.

That all said, I think DI plus a carbon block and sediment filter is a fine way to go for many folks. Particularly those with low water needs, or with low TDS water.

Such a system is not as effective at removing everything, but it is adequate for most reefers. :)
 
I don’t understand why people waste there time, water, and money with RO filters.

Green maybe, if fresh water is a concern where you live (it isn't everywhere). Anywhere the water goes back into a freshwater system (like the Mississippi or one of the Great Lakes, avoiding water use by using extra chemicals (those needed to make and recharge the resins, for instance) isn't necessarily green.

Cost? Don't agree. You'd be more convincing if you actually had cost numbers to compare, rather than stating something as fact when many of us disagree with it.

The use of an RO membrane cuts down the DI resin costs by a factor of 10-50. In my system, and especially in larger systems, the initial cost of an RO membrane is low compared to the cost of all the resins needed over time. Yes, you may be willing to recharge resins yourself, but you need to figure all the time involved. My time is worth a lot more than I can make back recharging resins myself. :)

Time? I would instantly assume the opposite if you mean the time an aquarist spends on something (which is the primary time factor, IMO), especially if you recharge the resins yourself. Time needed to make a batch of water is immaterial, if you turn it on and come back the next day to a filled reservoir.

That all said, I think DI plus a carbon block and sediment filter is a fine way to go for many folks. Particularly those with low water needs, or with low TDS water.

Such a system is not as effective at removing everything, but it is adequate for most reefers. :)


Randy- I just wanted to get some peoples attention in my original post, didn’t really mean for it to come across as FACT. Maybe using RO filters works out better for you in your situation.

Read post 31 in this thread! Cost? Obviously its much cheaper and more practicable for me in my location with my source water and expensive water bill to use a Di system. What am I supposed to compare ?

Time? how can you instantly assume the opposite? Not all of us are like you and have the luxury of turning the water on and coming back the next day. Sounds like you waste lots and lots of water. I said in my original post that I don’t recharge my resin, no need to because I don’t go through it as fast as you think I do. With my design and the way I rotate I am able to use all my filters and DI untill they are completely exhausted. Best of all its nice to fill up my reservoir with 0ppm water in under an hour. While it takes you days! :thumbdown
 
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t? Obviously its much cheaper and more practicable for me in my location with my source water and expensive water bill to use a Di system. What am I supposed to compare ?

OK, I see you comment that it may not be cost effective for everyone, but I'm not sure how it is obvious that it is cost effective for you, as there is no data or calculation that I found (maybe I missed it).

Maybe it is cost effective for you, and it may be for a small water volume or low TDS water, especially in the short run, but the comparison I'd ask for is cost of DI resin replacement vs the cost of (waste water plus the RO membrane plus the reduced DI resin use) over some period of time, like the usual life of an RO membrane, say 5 years?
 
Randy, why don`t you also tell us what kind of chemicals are used in the production and recharging of the resins. I am sure its much nastier than the waste water. Of course most consumers don`t recharge their own resins- so I suppose all the nasty stuff they pull out of the water is then concentrated in landfills. The only value I see is for systems in deserts and whatnot that cannot afford any waste. Likely those folks shouldn`t keep aquariums if the situation is so dire that we have to pollute the earth with all those nasty chemicals.
 
Randy, why don`t you also tell us what kind of chemicals are used in the production and recharging of the resins. I am sure its much nastier than the waste water. Of course most consumers don`t recharge their own resins- so I suppose all the nasty stuff they pull out of the water is then concentrated in landfills. The only value I see is for systems in deserts and whatnot that cannot afford any waste. Likely those folks shouldn`t keep aquariums if the situation is so dire that we have to pollute the earth with all those nasty chemicals.

recharging wise I think its mostly just NaOH and HCL which are not terribly nasty once diluted...the Na+ dissociates and the OH will eventually just become water... Cl also dissociates, and H will recombine with OH to form water. Personally I use pharmaceutical grade Sodium Hydroxide and muriatic acid(HCl)from Canadian tire... I had a cheap source of NaOH through a friend @ a laboratory and so i have enough to last a while...

mixing equal parts of 1M NaOH and HCL just forms plain old table salt and water....just fyi...not too terrible ...

Creating the resins though...entirely different. I'm sure lots and lots of nasty nasty things are used in creating the resins.

PS, sorry I stole randy's answer.
 
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so hydrochloric acid and lye- as you say not too bad- but worse than water- and I assume poured down the drain when finished using. I appreciate your educating us on this.
 
In terms of green overall, one would want to also consider what it takes to make the recharging chemicals and the resin itself (petrochemicals, inorganic chemicals, electricity, water, waste water and waste chemicals, etc). HCl and NaOH are produced in a variety of different ways in different industries. Wikipedia has some nice info on the various ways.
 
Randy, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are also some large molecular weight molecules (e.g. BPA, which is present in some water sources and can feminize lots of marine organisms) which would be removed by RO but which aren't removed by DI alone.
 
That's right. RO removes almost any organic, while DI won't remove any neutral organic, and even a carbon cartridge plus DI won't remove some organics. Whether that is an issue or not depends, of course, on what might be in the water. :)
 
i have been using the aqua-fx octopus ro unit it's the greenest ro unit on the market you set the ratio of pure water to waste like my ratio is one to one for every gallon of good water only one gallon goes to waste what it does is it has a pump that passes the waste water through the filters more than once been using it for over a month and love it
 
I guess I am not clear on what people are saying regarding the greeness of recharging a DI resin.

Wouldn't the use of a mixed bed resin that is sent to the landfill, replaced by another resin that needs to be manufactured etc...in addition to the waste water associated with an RO/DI unit, be less green than recharging a KATI/ANI unit?

Honestly I am not clear on the full lifecycle process to have a clear opinion myself.
 
I think the comparison is RO/DI vs [DI only (recharged) or DI only (not recharged)]

I agree that recharging isn't going to be worse than new resins each time, at least from a green perspective and assuming one does it efficiently. :)
 
Something is strange here, but I need to wait until he posts more information before I can comment.

Strange things: reverse osmosis does not remove impurities from water. It removes clean water from impurities. You have to let the impurities goes SOMEWHERE - it is not like they are being collected somewhere like in mechanical filtration. If you want to go green just run your waste water line into your yard/garden. Problem solved.

DI removes different things from water than reverse osmosis. As its name implies, it de-ionizes the water by removing mineral ions like sodium, calcium, iron, (cations) and chlorides and bromides (anions). It is complementary to reverse osmosis; it does completely different things.

Why are you running UV in your storage tanks to "prevent mold"? If your water filtration system is working well the water should be close to distilled quality and have ZERO organics. There should be nothing in the water to grow mold.

Personally, I hear a LOT of work being done with lots of filter changes, filter media used, electricity used, etc, just to avoid running some waste water into your yard. Where do you think filter media comes from? How is your electricity generated? If either of these answers is less green than running 100 gallons of waste water into your garden each week, I think you are heading down the wrong path. If you want to save water, just take shorter showers :)
 
well stated ,and i think we all could be greener in this hobby but first have to fully understand what is actually green . i have been seeing the advertisements for the new fully electric green car . if they burn coal to make the electricity that recharges its batteries it is in now way green .even the ethanol that they are putting in gas now is actually less green and has more bad bi-products than gas . at least if you burn gas the "mess" from the production is in someone else's back yard .walk run or ride a bike to work and thats green except for the products used to make the bike . getting a bit off the original statement but "GREEN" is still somewhat a grey subject cause so many things go into actually being "GREEN" so im out for now !
happy Easter to all !
 
I definitely like this idea. I wouldn't exactly call it greener. True, there's no waste water. But, you have to deal with using up a lot more DI resin that going to go into the landfill if you don't regenerate it. If you do end up regenerating it, you're dealing with highly caustic and acidic chemicals, part of which are going down the drain.
 
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