Salt Analysis Study Results
- Thread starter DrBegalke
- Start date
coralfragger101
Gone Postal
I wonder why no one has questioned the "nominally" mixing of the salt bags/boxes prior to the sample being used.
Unless all salt mixes are a homogeneous mixture this would surely bring about inaccurate results.
IMO - The salt mixes should have been prepared in whole prior to testing.
Unless all salt mixes are a homogeneous mixture this would surely bring about inaccurate results.
IMO - The salt mixes should have been prepared in whole prior to testing.
LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
FWIW, they explained this. They are trying to replicate hobbyists. I sure dont mix up that whole 160g bucket at once. And most people dont even mix/stir the salt prior to using (I dont usually).
The same issue came up with water. They decided to use hobby grade RODI rather than super duper lab water because we use hobby grade RODI...
then why not just use Red Sea test kits?
why bother getting new mixing containers, acid washing every thing. new RO/DI and then not mix the salt?
Why bother doing a bromide test and then say you cant verify it?
this test was supposed to show what to expect from batches of salt mix's not unmixed samples of batches.
i dont mean any disrespect to anyone that worked hard to get this test done but to me this is looking like an infomercial. now people are wanting to send in their own samples to have tested and pay for it out of their own pockets. sounds like a win win for AWT
Infomercial or not: the sample size could have been larger; the whole buckett could have been mixed and tested;the bromide test could have followed a more rigorus protocol. Nonetheless,the information and methods were shared for each of us to weigh and use as we see fit. If this is a means of showing their product,it's a generally helpful way to do it .So, I say, thankyou.
Billybeau1
Premium Member
This probably won't be popular, but I gotta say whats on my mind.
I personally think it is a waist of time to continue this experiment.
Just what is it are you all trying to find out anyway ? What is the best salt mix ?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
What works for some doesn't necessarily work for others. I've said this before. Most commercial salt mixes available to us today are ok to use in reef aquariums. Do you think they would manufacture it if it wasn't ?
Why do you think Randy (with all of the reef chemistry knowledge he possesses) chooses to use plain old IO and supplement ?
Because it makes HIS tank look good.
Some folks don't like supplementing and there are plenty of salts on the market that do it for you. Just look at the numbers I got in my general testing of salt mixes.
Now I spent a lot of time with these tests and my numbers are mixed to 35 ppt and 5 gallon batches were made for each test. I'm no AWT, but I spent a lot of time ensuring accuracy in my numbers.
Did I have beakers and scales and acid washed containers ? No. But I mixed all my test salts just like the average reefer would do, using the same equipment an average reefer uses. Temperature at 79 degrees, refractometer calibrated to 53 mS and I used three different hobby grade test kits to average my readings.
Do you know why my numbers are so different than AWT's ?
JD and Boomer hit it on the head.
You can't take 7 grams of a synthetic salt mix and expect the results to be an example of whats in the whole container. If you are truly going to find out what your salt mix is giving you, you have got to mix up a batch.
I wonder why AWT's numbers are so different from mine yet I keep getting PM's about how my numbers are close to what they've seen.
Even if I go with the numbers on their charts and assume they are 35 ppt as they say, they are still way off from what I have tested.
These numbers make no sense to me for a lot of reasons, unless, all hobby grade kits are garbage and we shouldn't believe any of them.
As for those of you worried about elevated phosphates or nitrates or nitrites or ammonia in some the published data, I say bunk.
I'll say it again, BUNK.
These measurements are so small that it wouldn't hurt a flea.
I'll say it one more time. I have yet to see a commercial salt mix be blamed for killing a fish or a coral that wasn't user related.
In Summary, good Dr B, I salute you for making this happen. I had high expectations as you did I'm sure. AWT stepped up to the plate and struck out in my opinion.
But to continue this adventure to me is senseless. I think we should all focus on what salt mix makes our tank look the best. Sometimes we all get too hung up in numbers. After all, our tanks all use different amounts of the big three and therefore, we need to be aware of how much our tanks consume to keep the values within reason.
I personally think it is a waist of time to continue this experiment.
Just what is it are you all trying to find out anyway ? What is the best salt mix ?
THERE IS NO SUCH THING.
What works for some doesn't necessarily work for others. I've said this before. Most commercial salt mixes available to us today are ok to use in reef aquariums. Do you think they would manufacture it if it wasn't ?
Why do you think Randy (with all of the reef chemistry knowledge he possesses) chooses to use plain old IO and supplement ?
Because it makes HIS tank look good.
Some folks don't like supplementing and there are plenty of salts on the market that do it for you. Just look at the numbers I got in my general testing of salt mixes.
Now I spent a lot of time with these tests and my numbers are mixed to 35 ppt and 5 gallon batches were made for each test. I'm no AWT, but I spent a lot of time ensuring accuracy in my numbers.
Did I have beakers and scales and acid washed containers ? No. But I mixed all my test salts just like the average reefer would do, using the same equipment an average reefer uses. Temperature at 79 degrees, refractometer calibrated to 53 mS and I used three different hobby grade test kits to average my readings.
Do you know why my numbers are so different than AWT's ?
JD and Boomer hit it on the head.
You can't take 7 grams of a synthetic salt mix and expect the results to be an example of whats in the whole container. If you are truly going to find out what your salt mix is giving you, you have got to mix up a batch.
I wonder why AWT's numbers are so different from mine yet I keep getting PM's about how my numbers are close to what they've seen.
Even if I go with the numbers on their charts and assume they are 35 ppt as they say, they are still way off from what I have tested.
These numbers make no sense to me for a lot of reasons, unless, all hobby grade kits are garbage and we shouldn't believe any of them.
As for those of you worried about elevated phosphates or nitrates or nitrites or ammonia in some the published data, I say bunk.
I'll say it again, BUNK.
These measurements are so small that it wouldn't hurt a flea.
I'll say it one more time. I have yet to see a commercial salt mix be blamed for killing a fish or a coral that wasn't user related.
In Summary, good Dr B, I salute you for making this happen. I had high expectations as you did I'm sure. AWT stepped up to the plate and struck out in my opinion.
But to continue this adventure to me is senseless. I think we should all focus on what salt mix makes our tank look the best. Sometimes we all get too hung up in numbers. After all, our tanks all use different amounts of the big three and therefore, we need to be aware of how much our tanks consume to keep the values within reason.
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Billybeau1,I have trusted your numbers and still do.I don't really trust manufacturer's,however.
You're testing efforts are sincerely appreciated and have helped me understand salt mixes better than I did before you put out your results and answered questions. I put alot of that white stuff from the buckett into my system and constantly seek more information about it to avoid harming the reefs I keep. So eventhough the information from awt may be flawed in part I'll gladly take it for what it's worth.
You're testing efforts are sincerely appreciated and have helped me understand salt mixes better than I did before you put out your results and answered questions. I put alot of that white stuff from the buckett into my system and constantly seek more information about it to avoid harming the reefs I keep. So eventhough the information from awt may be flawed in part I'll gladly take it for what it's worth.
Billybeau1
Premium Member
Tom, but let me ask you.
Do you really think that if a bunch of reefers send in samples to any salt testing company and they analyze it, that we will be any closer than we are now ?
I suspect not.
Do you really think that if a bunch of reefers send in samples to any salt testing company and they analyze it, that we will be any closer than we are now ?
I suspect not.
vessxpress1
Premium Member
I was thinking about switching from RC to TMPro Reef. For the price, it really didn't stand out in these tests. I think I will stick with RC.
The volume test was great. Very helpful.
The volume test was great. Very helpful.
Perhaps if the company is independent of the salt manufacturers,competent, tests what's relevant , uses rigorus methods and communicates results in a clear and ubiased way.
That has been done in the past, Several times, in fact. FWIW, while I've seen many salt mix studies come and go, I've never been a fan of wanting to spend my time or money on them.
Why? In addition to all the issues detailed by others above that are technical ones that could theoretically be solved perfectly with enough time and effort, there is a very short window of usefulness for such a study. Salt mix recipes change frequently and without notice. Consequently, there is no ***urance that what you test today reflects what is sold tomorrow.
That has been done in the past, Several times, in fact. FWIW, while I've seen many salt mix studies come and go, I've never been a fan of wanting to spend my time or money on them.
Why? In addition to all the issues detailed by others above that are technical ones that could theoretically be solved perfectly with enough time and effort, there is a very short window of usefulness for such a study. Salt mix recipes change frequently and without notice. Consequently, there is no ***urance that what you test today reflects what is sold tomorrow.
RokleM
Premium Member
Not completely true, well at least open to interpretation. When Kent had their horrible batch of almost 0.0 alkalinity buckets when the plant moved out of Ohio, a good number of tanks were impacted. You can argue that the end-user should have tested, but it was absolutely the commercial salt mix that was to blame.
None the less, I applaud AWT for their attempt, but agree with the rest of your post. I'm no scientist, but looking through their report I was wondering myself how the testing process made much sense. It was worth a try and the numbers give everyone an idea, but honestly I put more stock into Billybeau1's thread.
That being said, it absolutely still retains some value to me personally. What I've learned from their study: I use Tropic Marin Pro Reef and will probably continue to do so given the fact I've been happy so far. Given the fact the two tests were so far off, I do plan to be more diligent in testing my made salt water prior to use. As well, I plan to figure out how to do an outstanding job of mixing my salt buckets (not sure how as of yet). I only use 45-50 gallons at a time. Maybe I need to go to boxes instead. At this point I have no idea if their testing just grabbed weird unmixed bunches of salt or if their numbers really vary that much between batches.
shred5
Premium Member
Randy
Not only that what difference does it make if one salt has 20 ppm less calcium or the difference of .2 dkh? The only thing I really care about is that they do not add anything bad because most salts are within acceptable ranges and that the salt is consistent from bucket to bucket. .
No body changes 100 percent of their water anyway. Most people do about 5 - 15 percent so it is more important what your tank ranges are at because a water change makes very little impact esp. on large tanks. Not only that is I usually test a new bucket of salt the first few times I use it to make sure it is not too off and add what I need. I test each one only because I got a bucket of coralife with no calcium in it many years ago. No matter how good the salt is dosing or a calcium reactor is still necessary for sps tanks.
It seems as reef hobbyists we obsess over things even if it is minimal and makes no difference.
Edit: Another thing is we do not know what affect some of these elements in seawater has on our corals good or bad. How fast some of this stuff is used up or accumilates. What optimal levels really are?
honestly I want a salt that is as close to NSW as possible.
Dave
Not only that what difference does it make if one salt has 20 ppm less calcium or the difference of .2 dkh? The only thing I really care about is that they do not add anything bad because most salts are within acceptable ranges and that the salt is consistent from bucket to bucket. .
No body changes 100 percent of their water anyway. Most people do about 5 - 15 percent so it is more important what your tank ranges are at because a water change makes very little impact esp. on large tanks. Not only that is I usually test a new bucket of salt the first few times I use it to make sure it is not too off and add what I need. I test each one only because I got a bucket of coralife with no calcium in it many years ago. No matter how good the salt is dosing or a calcium reactor is still necessary for sps tanks.
It seems as reef hobbyists we obsess over things even if it is minimal and makes no difference.
Edit: Another thing is we do not know what affect some of these elements in seawater has on our corals good or bad. How fast some of this stuff is used up or accumilates. What optimal levels really are?
honestly I want a salt that is as close to NSW as possible.
Dave
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