Salt Poll 2010
- Thread starter Tvarg
- Start date
I bought mine a month ago and at that time it had only been released to one store. I talked to the reps for quite awhile and they said it was only being sold 'in-store' - no online sales. I don't know how soon until they begin shipping it all over, but for now it's going to be hard to find.
Dun Properly
Member
My mix bucket gets a bit of a white salty residue after mixing, but I haven't really noticed anything out of the ordinary. I always rinse everything afterwards anyways.
I have heard of people complaining about thier salt mix (other brands) leaving a brown residue, but I have never experienced it.
Chiefsurfer
New member
I read a HUGE technical data report on some of the top brands. The differences are what is IN the salt. None of them are perfect. As someone stated before, Making salt includes refining process to remove the bad stuff, or adding stuff that is not necessarily good, but cheaper. For instance, company A may use calcium chloride to raise the calcium in their blend. Well pure calcium costs $50/oz, while calcium chloride costs $5/oz, sin instead of making a bucket of salt cost you $500 a bucket for pure chemicals, they use the slightly less desireable combos to make the price reasonable.
The study I read about measured basically EVERYTHING in the salt-mixes. It then compared them to NATURAL sea-water. I use Tropic Marin because it was one of the CLOSEST to natural seawater. They excluded the VERY premium salts, because they are in a class their own, and very close, and at that point a personal preference.
A lot of the "reef" salts are generally higher in calcium and magnesium than "normal" salt mixes. So, Reef Crystals and Instant ocean, perfect examples. Reef Crystals is MOSTLY the same as instant ocean, except more calcium and magnesium. For most people with full reefs(aged) there is no need to differentiate between the two, because it is VERY likely that that system will not get all it's necessary calcium from the salt-mix, so when dosing anyway, might as well use the cheaper stuff. If you are in the beginning stages of the tank, and are lightly stocked with corals, you probably SHOULD use a salt with higher calcium and magnesium, to prevent your need for dosing. IMO, you can go as cheap as you want when you have a fully stocked reef tank, as you will not get all your calcium and magnesium from your water-changes.
The study I read about measured basically EVERYTHING in the salt-mixes. It then compared them to NATURAL sea-water. I use Tropic Marin because it was one of the CLOSEST to natural seawater. They excluded the VERY premium salts, because they are in a class their own, and very close, and at that point a personal preference.
A lot of the "reef" salts are generally higher in calcium and magnesium than "normal" salt mixes. So, Reef Crystals and Instant ocean, perfect examples. Reef Crystals is MOSTLY the same as instant ocean, except more calcium and magnesium. For most people with full reefs(aged) there is no need to differentiate between the two, because it is VERY likely that that system will not get all it's necessary calcium from the salt-mix, so when dosing anyway, might as well use the cheaper stuff. If you are in the beginning stages of the tank, and are lightly stocked with corals, you probably SHOULD use a salt with higher calcium and magnesium, to prevent your need for dosing. IMO, you can go as cheap as you want when you have a fully stocked reef tank, as you will not get all your calcium and magnesium from your water-changes.
Tvarg
New member
Chiefsurfer, I would like to see this "HUGE technical data report" and where the individual got his or her data from. I would also like to see their references. I would have to disagree with some of those claims. I know many individuals in the synthetic salt business and I'm sure they would like to see this report as well.
Some of these salts are made from natural ingredients.
Some of these salts are made from natural ingredients.
Chiefsurfer
New member
ill try to find it, but am sure that I will not. I need to start learning to bookmark things more often. It was not done with ALL the ones you listed, like I said with maybe the most popular 6-10 brands.
TitusvileSurfer
New member
This is one of the silliest arguments I've ever heard. Pure calcium cost so much because it doesn't exist in nature. You have to pay for a laboratory to distill it. I don't think plopping an ice cream scoop worth into a reef would be particularly beneficial either. Calcium chloride is a better configuration because it isn't as reactive. Kind of a low blow but calcium chloride also happens to be a pure salt in its own right. Just because calcium chloride is less expensive doesn't make it less "desireable". The reason CaCl2 is less expensive is because it exists in nature. You can mine it right from limestone. It's in the oceans...pure calcium I assure you is not. It's availability is what makes the price of calcium chloride so much lower, but don't think calcium would do a better job just because it's 10x more expensive.
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Chiefsurfer
New member
Here's one, hope it comes up, AND will add to the list. This is not the original one I spoke of, but is a decent one.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/index.php
And to all those people flaming my post, and using aclcium chloride as a specific example are taking it out of context. I told you I did not remember the exact mineral/element, but was purely citing as an example. I am not saying using calcium chloride instead of pure calcium is a bad thing. It was purely an example.
Here is the study I was going by. It was done by DR's Atkinson and Bingman at the University of Marine Biology in Hawaii. It's a downloadable PDF, I saw it in an online magazine, but cannot find the internet site for it.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h....com/files/sels.pdf&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholarr
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/index.php
And to all those people flaming my post, and using aclcium chloride as a specific example are taking it out of context. I told you I did not remember the exact mineral/element, but was purely citing as an example. I am not saying using calcium chloride instead of pure calcium is a bad thing. It was purely an example.
Here is the study I was going by. It was done by DR's Atkinson and Bingman at the University of Marine Biology in Hawaii. It's a downloadable PDF, I saw it in an online magazine, but cannot find the internet site for it.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h....com/files/sels.pdf&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholarr
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maynardjames
New member
with rc i get 45 instead of listed 50 gallons. is 5 gallons worth 20 to 50 dollars more?
Alex T.
Active member
No one's listed my brand yet. I've been advised by a former TOTM recipient in a private message to use "any other salt but this one". I asked because I'd never heard of it. Although some claim that it bleached their corals and killed livestock, I continue to use it and my SPS, clams and fishes are not just living but thriving with no stresses at all. I've never bleached a coral as I was warned would be the most likely outcome. It's Crystal Sea Marine Mix.
I called Crystal Sea's parent company, Marine Enterprises International (MEI) in Baltimore to ask them why so many on reef boards malign their product, and the answer, although I'm paraphrasing, was this: When Dr. Shimek's study on salt mixes came out with regards to which ones would allow urchin embryos to thrive Crystal Sea came out on top. The belief was that heavy metal concentration and the use of EDTA (a water clarifying agent) in other salt mixes over time built up to toxic levels which eventually caused the dreaded "tank crash". Now I know why some people are so thrilled that their salt mix clears so quickly. Honestly, who cares? Are they trying to see how fast they can throw it in their tank? Many people read the study and rushed to buy Crystal Sea and proceeded to perform many massive water changes to rid their tanks of these impending toxic conditions. Obviously, doing this with any salt mix can wreak havoc on any established tank and is not advisable by any salt mix company. So thus, the Crystal Sea bashing began. Since these other brands learned of the study, EDTA is not as prevalent in salt mixes today as it was back in 2003.
Personally, I believe what I was told by MEI. I cycled my tank with Instant Ocean, ran out of that so I bought some Oceanic, ran out of that and started using Crystal Sea and haven't looked back. The only difference I've seen is there's more money in my pocket and I can do larger water changes, thereby keeping my tank in check easier. It costs $19.95 for a 150 gallon box. It consistently mixes to 9dKH and 380 Calcium. With all the SPS and clams in my tank I use a reactor anyway, so the lower numbers are actually welcomed. I feel a shift to the low end is better than one which throws alkalinity too high.
My point is....don't believe the hype. If you like a salt mix, go with it. We're really stressing over minutia here folks. What good would a $90 bucket of salt mix do for you if it makes you skimp on water changes and basic husbandry. I can have 600 gallons of water changes to that one hyped up $90 "pharmaceutical grade" bucket. Like other things in life, we need to "get back to the basics". It's usually the Indian, not the arrow. I'm not saying go out and buy Crystal Sea. Actually I could care less if anyone else agrees with me. If it's so horrible why does it mix to the same parameters every time I test it? If it's that bad, it's pretty damn consistent at doing it the same every time. After researching all the public aquariums and wholesalers who use it exclusively, I felt sort of weird stumbling across it simply on a price point. I've come to find out that my favorite not so lfs, The Hidden Reef in Levittown, PA uses it exclusively in all their fish, invert, soft, sps and LPS tanks....basically everything salt in their thousands of gallons of systems. And only $19.95 for 150 gallons. Hmmm. Go figure.
I called Crystal Sea's parent company, Marine Enterprises International (MEI) in Baltimore to ask them why so many on reef boards malign their product, and the answer, although I'm paraphrasing, was this: When Dr. Shimek's study on salt mixes came out with regards to which ones would allow urchin embryos to thrive Crystal Sea came out on top. The belief was that heavy metal concentration and the use of EDTA (a water clarifying agent) in other salt mixes over time built up to toxic levels which eventually caused the dreaded "tank crash". Now I know why some people are so thrilled that their salt mix clears so quickly. Honestly, who cares? Are they trying to see how fast they can throw it in their tank? Many people read the study and rushed to buy Crystal Sea and proceeded to perform many massive water changes to rid their tanks of these impending toxic conditions. Obviously, doing this with any salt mix can wreak havoc on any established tank and is not advisable by any salt mix company. So thus, the Crystal Sea bashing began. Since these other brands learned of the study, EDTA is not as prevalent in salt mixes today as it was back in 2003.
Personally, I believe what I was told by MEI. I cycled my tank with Instant Ocean, ran out of that so I bought some Oceanic, ran out of that and started using Crystal Sea and haven't looked back. The only difference I've seen is there's more money in my pocket and I can do larger water changes, thereby keeping my tank in check easier. It costs $19.95 for a 150 gallon box. It consistently mixes to 9dKH and 380 Calcium. With all the SPS and clams in my tank I use a reactor anyway, so the lower numbers are actually welcomed. I feel a shift to the low end is better than one which throws alkalinity too high.
My point is....don't believe the hype. If you like a salt mix, go with it. We're really stressing over minutia here folks. What good would a $90 bucket of salt mix do for you if it makes you skimp on water changes and basic husbandry. I can have 600 gallons of water changes to that one hyped up $90 "pharmaceutical grade" bucket. Like other things in life, we need to "get back to the basics". It's usually the Indian, not the arrow. I'm not saying go out and buy Crystal Sea. Actually I could care less if anyone else agrees with me. If it's so horrible why does it mix to the same parameters every time I test it? If it's that bad, it's pretty damn consistent at doing it the same every time. After researching all the public aquariums and wholesalers who use it exclusively, I felt sort of weird stumbling across it simply on a price point. I've come to find out that my favorite not so lfs, The Hidden Reef in Levittown, PA uses it exclusively in all their fish, invert, soft, sps and LPS tanks....basically everything salt in their thousands of gallons of systems. And only $19.95 for 150 gallons. Hmmm. Go figure.
romanr
New member
The RC is around $50 per bucket locally. My TM Bio-Actif is $105 shipped.
if you get 140 gallons our of an RC bucket that's 36 cents per gallon.
I get 200 gallons out of my TM bucket so that's 52 cents per gallon.
Yes the cost is still much more but not as bad as some would make it out to be. Trust me I'm not a TM snob, I used IO for 10+ years exclusively. I'm on my first bucket of TM Bio-Actif and I like the results and will stick with it.
if you get 140 gallons our of an RC bucket that's 36 cents per gallon.
I get 200 gallons out of my TM bucket so that's 52 cents per gallon.
Yes the cost is still much more but not as bad as some would make it out to be. Trust me I'm not a TM snob, I used IO for 10+ years exclusively. I'm on my first bucket of TM Bio-Actif and I like the results and will stick with it.
Chiefsurfer
New member
no problem tvarg, 75% of it is in very difficult to understand scientific jargin, and I perused through the reading material. I did however study the graphs and diagrams, which is basically a summation of the results of the study.
maynardjames
New member
i have to order online to even get rc close to 50 bucks for 200 gallon mix. i liked d&d h2o as well but with shipping & already high salt price it just wasnt` worth it. i live on the south side of nowhere & don`t have many choices for lfs that deal in saltwater stuff
romanr
New member
quality, brand loyalty, or price?
I think it has to do with all 3. I do think that if money was not an issue that more people would be tempted to try out some of the more expensive and popular salts.
I'm actually struggling with the decision on my next bucket. I'm trying TM Bio-Actif and really like it but.... Can I spend the extra $ on something more needed? Right now I'm thinking I'll stick with one more TM bucket and then makeup my mind.
I think it has to do with all 3. I do think that if money was not an issue that more people would be tempted to try out some of the more expensive and popular salts.
I'm actually struggling with the decision on my next bucket. I'm trying TM Bio-Actif and really like it but.... Can I spend the extra $ on something more needed? Right now I'm thinking I'll stick with one more TM bucket and then makeup my mind.
Anemonebuff
New member
I use IO and just add supplements to make it more like Reef Crystals at a lower cost. The 2 part solutions get the parameters straight by the next day anyway.
phenom5
Member
Price and quality for me.
I've switched to IO, using supplements to get the parameters where I want them.
IO is consistent, and the price is hard to beat. If I could get TM Pro or H2Ocean for even close to the same price as IO, I'd switch.
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