Sand Bed getting grimy, how to clean?

[jharding08]

I have had my tank up for about a year and a couple months. I do water changes every week and try to siphon the sand bed each time.

I have algae that I scrape off the glass, overflow, rocks, etc each water change and I try to let it float in the water and get pulled into the overflow/sump before I begin siphoning the sand.

I am using the siphoning technique where I put the siphon in the sand and let the sand get almost to the top of the tube. Then I squeeze the tube and pull the siphon out of the sand, letting the sand fallback onto the sand bed. I release the tube once most of the sand is out of the siphon so that it gets the detritus still in the siphon water stream.

What I am seeing in my sand bed now is a lot of large chunks of detritus, possibly left over algae that the siphon didnt get, or the algae that grows on top of the sand.

The siphon method doesnt get this large matter, just the smaller stuff. Can I use something else to get it? I am removing more sand than detritus when I siphon nowadays.

 

[Auston]

I have also wondered how to clean it mecanicaly and keep my sand.

 

[ca1ore]

I think if you do a search here on RC you will find multiple views on this subject. I never siphon clean my sand bed as to do so simply removes all of the biological benefits that a sand bed can offer. If you are getting detritus build up on the sand, I'd suggest that you have inadequate flow in your tank. This would extend to cyano growth as well.

 

[ReefKeep66]

I think if you do a search here on RC you will find multiple views on this subject. I never siphon clean my sand bed as to do so simply removes all of the biological benefits that a sand bed can offer. If you are getting detritus build up on the sand, I'd suggest that you have inadequate flow in your tank. This would extend to cyano growth as well.

+1 if your really having issues keeping your sand bed free from algae or diatoms, it's going to be easier and more beneficial to solve the problem as a whole rather than siphon your sand every week. High nitrates? High phosphates? Contributing factors to algae growth.

 

[PhaneSoul]

High detritus in the sandbed is the source of algae and cyano. All those 'beneficial' organisms eat what's in the sandbed and poop in the sandbed. The only way a sandbed is beneficial is if your must have organisms live in the sandbed, this would be food for sand sifting gobies and such. Other then aesthetic reasons there is nothing good about not cleaning your sandbed.

 

[ca1ore]

High detritus in the sandbed is the source of algae and cyano. All those 'beneficial' organisms eat what's in the sandbed and poop in the sandbed. The only way a sandbed is beneficial is if your must have organisms live in the sandbed, this would be food for sand sifting gobies and such. Other then aesthetic reasons there is nothing good about not cleaning your sandbed.

Lots of 'half truths' in what you say, other than your final comment which is completely false. Indeed, I'd suggest that aesthetics are in fact the only reason to siphon clean a sandbed . Even a cursory consideration of the food chain would, I'd think, lead one to conclude that in the presence of an adequately diverse set of 'beneficial' organisms, the available nutrients would be largely consumed leaving 'poop' in the form of mineralized mulm. Siphoning the sandbed is the best way I can think of to ensure that this ecosystem of organisms never has the chance to get established.

I suppose we could debate whether, in our captive tanks, an adequately diverse set of organisms will become established. In depth treatments of deep sand beds, for example, suggest that the real issue is depletion of animal diversity in the sand. My own anecdotal observations over a long period of time has certainly led me to conclude that an un-siphoned sand bed is not a source of problematic nutrients; it's actually quite the opposite.

But, like I said, lots of threads here on RC on the topic, both pro and con, so no need to debate it further here I'd think.

 

[PhaneSoul]

Yes, my last sentence was a bit, yeah okay, fully opinionated.

So let's go down this road, I still have lots to learn, but there is a lot I have learned.

So mineralized mulm. What is it, how's it get there, is it beneficial, what organisms benefit from it and where's it go?

As you already said, different organisms work on food passing it from one to another until it's broken down to it's inorganic parts correct?

From what I gather mulm is the sludge or detritus if you will in different stages of being broken down into inorganic form, some to include are copper, zinc, magnese, phos, nitrate.

It gets there in short by gravity.

That's about all I can muster up right now, anyone care to elaborate on some more?

 

[ca1ore]

OK, think about it this way .....

You feed your fish. They incorporate nutrients from the food into biomass (i.e. they grow). Then they poop. Poop, aka detritus, is then consumed by corals and various members of your CUC who further remove nutrients and incorporate it into biomass. Then they poop, and the next level of consumers eat it and poop it ...... and so on. Eventually you get to the point where the vast majority of the nutrients have been 'stored' as biomass and what you have left is inert mulm. So then you siphon out the sand bed and assume that all the shmutz that gets removed is actually contributing to high nutrients, when it is more likely to a combination of this inert mulm and sand fines. And while siphoning, you effectively destroy all organisms that are doing your tank such a huge favor in the first place.

The flaw in this logic is if in fact our tanks are unable to maintain a fully functioning food web as I describe. So we augment with things like skimmers, GAC, algal turf scrubbers, chaeto and water changes to compensate. I'd suggest that a good 'proxy' for a healthy population of consumers are pods. If your tank grows lots of pods, and you leave your sand bed alone, you're probably good.

 

[PhaneSoul]

Okay. That didn't answer any of my previously posted questions, instead you answered a question I previously explained only I explained it in shorter terms.

So what do you think contributes to high nutrients? Not containing this expanded and fuller food chain?

 

[ca1ore]

Okay. That didn't answer any of my previously posted questions, instead you answered a question I previously explained only I explained it in shorter terms.

So what do you think contributes to high nutrients? Not containing this expanded and fuller food chain?

Seems like what I posted answered the questions I saw?

We're talking about solid detritus, and how it can be processed into inert mulm. But there's a whole other subject around dissolved organics. Those are used as food by some animals, giant clams for example and maybe corals, but much of it ends up either as skimmate or nitrates and phosphates. Once it's in the latter two forms, the skimmer ceases to be useful and you need to employ export mechanisms like water changes, algae filtration, GFO or carbon dosing.

I've written this elsewhere, but I just do not find that obsessively removing detritus/mulm from my tanks does much beneficial at all, it just depresses the populations of pods that call it home.

Sorry to the OP for the hijack.

 

[PhaneSoul]

So mineralized mulm. What is it, how's it get there, is it beneficial, what organisms benefit from it and where's it go?

You have answered the how does it get there part.

And is this a better definition of the mulm you speak of

From what I gather mulm is the sludge or detritus if you will in different stages of being broken down, some to include are copper, zinc, magnese, phos, nitrate.

 

[reefgeezer]

If your sand bed is just for looks and you don't care about the organisms that might be lost I don't think siphoning does any harm.

FWIW, I have a sand bed that is 1/2" to 3" deep depending on where you measure it. It is just for looks and doesn't really contribute to nutrient reduction, but I don't siphon it. I go to great lengths to add diversity to the system and I don't want to suck out the good stuff i.e. Pods, little Starfish, Snails, and etc.. I do however run a plastic utensil through the sand bed regularly to keep it from clumping. This stirs up some fine "stuff"... some detritus, some inorganic mass, and some sand dust... that I try to remove just because I can.

 

[jharding08]

If your sand bed is just for looks and you don't care about the organisms that might be lost I don't think siphoning does any harm.

FWIW, I have a sand bed that is 1/2" to 3" deep depending on where you measure it. It is just for looks and doesn't really contribute to nutrient reduction, but I don't siphon it. I go to great lengths to add diversity to the system and I don't want to suck out the good stuff i.e. Pods, little Starfish, Snails, and etc.. I do however run a plastic utensil through the sand bed regularly to keep it from clumping. This stirs up some fine "stuff"... some detritus, some inorganic mass, and some sand dust... that I try to remove just because I can.

Do you just remove the large particulate that is mixed into the sand with the plastic utensil? I'd like to keep my sand bed clean on top for looks, but the siphon doesnt get the algae/diatoms/left over matter into the water change bucket.

I'd love to just leave the sand bed alone, but I'd probably have a sand bed with a red/purple layer on top throughout the whole tank.

 

[cloak]

Just treat it the same way you would the gravel in your freshwater tank. Stir it up once a month or so with a small power head (or something) right before a water change. You won't get all of the muck out, but overall, it's better out than in. Don't OVERthink it. JMO, KISS, GL.

 

[reefgeezer]

If it we me, I'd remove the clumps with my fingers. How deep is you're sand bed?

 

[jharding08]

If it we me, I'd remove the clumps with my fingers. How deep is you're sand bed?

No deeper than 2" throughout

 

[raybyrne67]

There is an ongoing thread on this topic in the Advanced section.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2125242

 

[cloak]

That "scientific" stuff makes my ears bleed sometimes...

"Advanced? " Perhaps...

 

[jharding08]

There is an ongoing thread on this topic in the Advanced section.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2125242

Thank you for the reference.

Seems alot of people are in favor of vaccuuming shallow sand beds. My issue is that my siphon tube cant suck up the large particulate matter that is mixed into my sand. Any techniques with getting this out? Could I just use a slotted spoon or something like that, that grabs the large detritus, but keeps the sand in place?

 

[Mishri]

when I've had shallow sand beds I usually just get the stuff on top cleaned up, swirl the siphon over the sand so it sucks up what is on top. I leave the lower area alone.. not sure how much gets moved around down there, I don't normally keep sand dwellers. (other than a wrasse).