raybyrne67
New member
A slotted spoon should work for taking out the large chunks. Maybe a small net.
Sand Bed getting grimy, how to clean?
- Thread starter jharding08
- Start date
Reefin' Dude
New member
Lots of 'half truths' in what you say, other than your final comment which is completely false. Indeed, I'd suggest that aesthetics are in fact the only reason to siphon clean a sandbed. Even a cursory consideration of the food chain would, I'd think, lead one to conclude that in the presence of an adequately diverse set of 'beneficial' organisms, the available nutrients would be largely consumed leaving 'poop' in the form of mineralized mulm. Siphoning the sandbed is the best way I can think of to ensure that this ecosystem of organisms never has the chance to get established.
I suppose we could debate whether, in our captive tanks, an adequately diverse set of organisms will become established. In depth treatments of deep sand beds, for example, suggest that the real issue is depletion of animal diversity in the sand. My own anecdotal observations over a long period of time has certainly led me to conclude that an un-siphoned sand bed is not a source of problematic nutrients; it's actually quite the opposite.
But, like I said, lots of threads here on RC on the topic, both pro and con, so no need to debate it further here I'd think.
if the sand goes in empty fully rinsed of food (detritus) for the benthos, then how can a population of benthos get established if all of the detritus is migrated up and out of substrate? wouldn't this starve the benthos? if there is an ever increasing biomass of benthos from all of the detritus in the substrate, then how is this not increase in total P or N of a system? how does the N and P leave the substrate in a manner that is greater than what is going into the substrate? again, wouldn't this lead to a starving state for the benthos?
something is not making sense here, and i have a feeling it has to do with why every hobby/industry that deals with livestock want to get rid of the waste organic material as quickly as possible, but not the SW hobby industry.
G~
Zooxanthus
New member
it might just be creatures homes that are making the clumps, spaghetti worms and bristel worms and many other things clump small gravel together to make their homes and caves to crawl through. I have the same thing going on and I am pretty sure its the spaghetti worms that are doing it.
I bought an EHIM siphon that would siphon the gravel and not take any water out, it would just capture it in a net but i stopped using it for worry of nitrate and ammonia spikes. I would not siphon it at all.
I bought an EHIM siphon that would siphon the gravel and not take any water out, it would just capture it in a net but i stopped using it for worry of nitrate and ammonia spikes. I would not siphon it at all.
jharding08
BlueWorldAquatics.com
I think a net would do the trick. Maybe I'll do a couple scoops every water change and just siphon the top of the sand bed
3FordFamily
In Memoriam
Don't. Get sand sifting goby and stars
Reefin' Dude
New member
how will they help? where is the food they want to eat coming from? if the nutrients needed to sustain them is not increasing, then they would starve. if this is not the case, then there must be an ever increasing amount of resources for them to eat, would it not?
goes back to if the substrate went in clean, then why does it not stay clean? these are not difficult questions. if it worked as simple as we were told, then this should be an easy question to answer.
G~
goes back to if the substrate went in clean, then why does it not stay clean? these are not difficult questions. if it worked as simple as we were told, then this should be an easy question to answer.
G~
3FordFamily
In Memoriam
I have them for years. No issues
Reefin' Dude
New member
if they are your must have organisms, then great. if you think that they are helping to keep things clean, then i would look more into how substrates work, and where all of the food is coming from that is supporting not only them, but the organisms that they feed on. all organic material contains P and N, whether that is poo, detritus, bacteria, or organisms themselves. an increase in all of this represents a total increase in N and P of the system. how is this a good thing? how can a system maintain its nutrient level, if there is obviously an increase in nutrients within a substrate shown by an increase in biomass? oh, wait, we have been told to not feed as much. lets starve the organisms we actually want to keep in order to control the biomass of the all of the support organisms, that are not really needed anyway. got to love reefer logic. 
i am not saying that substrates are bad. they just do not behave in the way we have been told since the early 2000's. if you want one, great, whether that is for looks or for its eutrophic nutrient producing abilities, but its pros/cons need to be accounted for. it is going to fill up. it does in nature, and amazingly enough the same thing occurs in our systems.
just take that into account when determining the trophic state desired for the system and the maintenance schedule wishing to be used.
G~
i am not saying that substrates are bad. they just do not behave in the way we have been told since the early 2000's. if you want one, great, whether that is for looks or for its eutrophic nutrient producing abilities, but its pros/cons need to be accounted for. it is going to fill up. it does in nature, and amazingly enough the same thing occurs in our systems.
just take that into account when determining the trophic state desired for the system and the maintenance schedule wishing to be used. G~
reefgeezer
Active member
The OP ask a question, "The siphon method doesnt get this large matter, just the smaller stuff. Can I use something else to get it?". It appears the consensus answer is to simply scoop it out with a net, slotted spoon, fingers, or etc..
IMO, much of the discussion in this post really applies more to DSBs or maintaining diversity rather than the issues in OP's <2" deep sand bed. If the OP is receptive maybe the thread could discuss why the sand is clumping and ways to remedy the issue.
IMO, much of the discussion in this post really applies more to DSBs or maintaining diversity rather than the issues in OP's <2" deep sand bed. If the OP is receptive maybe the thread could discuss why the sand is clumping and ways to remedy the issue.
3FordFamily
In Memoriam
if they are your must have organisms, then great. if you think that they are helping to keep things clean, then i would look more into how substrates work, and where all of the food is coming from that is supporting not only them, but the organisms that they feed on. all organic material contains P and N, whether that is poo, detritus, bacteria, or organisms themselves. an increase in all of this represents a total increase in N and P of the system. how is this a good thing? how can a system maintain its nutrient level, if there is obviously an increase in nutrients within a substrate shown by an increase in biomass? oh, wait, we have been told to not feed as much. lets starve the organisms we actually want to keep in order to control the biomass of the all of the support organisms, that are not really needed anyway. got to love reefer logic.
i am not saying that substrates are bad. they just do not behave in the way we have been told since the early 2000's. if you want one, great, whether that is for looks or for its eutrophic nutrient producing abilities, but its pros/cons need to be accounted for. it is going to fill up. it does in nature, and amazingly enough the same thing occurs in our systems.
G~
Devoid of a ten page essay regarding how sand sifting Stars and gobies help clean the sand, and how power heads that slightly disturb it (high flow rather) can also, the most lamens and brief way to make my point is that by constantly turning the sand, the unwanted "grime" clouds the water as its moved, and the nastiness is removed by the skimmer.
Turning sand slowly is a crucial part of a complete ecosystem.
Reefin' Dude
New member
Sorry, what i did to get the big stuff. before a water change attach a canister filter then stir up the substrate. run the canister filter during the water change and afterwards until the water is clear. remove the canister and clean it. put it away until next time. this would not be recommended for those that have never touched their substrate.
the more waste organic material in the substrate the greater the chance of clumping. keeping the substrate clean will keep the clumping from happening.
the use of a settling tank will help in the accumulation of the big stuff. putting a good amount of it into an easy to clean area. conical tanks work great for this.
G~
jharding08
BlueWorldAquatics.com
I appreciate the depth of the conversation as it relates to DSBs and related nutrient changes. My sand bed is mostly for looks. I have been siphoning it clean since it has been up. I feel the clumps of detritus that have accumulated in the sand are from either the bacteria/algae that forms on top of the sand between water changes or from the algae/bacteria that I scrape off of the glass/blow off of the rocks before the water change. Most of it stays suspended in the water column and subsequently flushed into the overflow and filter socks. THe stuff that does settle on the sand bed, if big enough, does not get removed with siphoning during the water change. It just gets mixed into the sand by the siphoning action of being pulled up into the siphon tube, then dropped when the sand reaches the top of the siphon tube.
Just need a mechanical way to remove the large detritus and I think a net will do fine.
Just need a mechanical way to remove the large detritus and I think a net will do fine.
Reefin' Dude
New member
the sand itself creates its own detritus. flow over the top of a substrate is not going to stop the accumulation of detritus in a substrate. the same process that produces detritus from the LR is occurring in the substrate. bacterial activity produces detritus. rock and sand would not be live if it did not produce its own detritus.
G~
G~
3FordFamily
In Memoriam
Which is why if something stirs it up so that it can be removed with filtration/skimming, it would be beneficial and continue to be cleaned little bits at a time rather than all at once which may stress fish
A few observations. Clearly our tanks are not the open ocean. They lack the scale, and the species diversity, and at some point the system will fail because the substrates become choked with silt or benthic populations exceed the carrying capacity of the system. How long that takes is unclear. I've run a reef tank with an an u disturbed sand bed for periods exceeding 10 years, and on dismantling the system noted no signs that the sand bed was a problem. I think as with all things, as the sand collects nutrients, benthic organisms follow. A good reason to use real live rock I think.
As to your last point, I think most industries that deal with livestock do not aspire to an ecosystem. That's true for most zoos, and certainly for food animals. If your goal is simply to raise the animal without concern for the supporting ecosystem, then the rapid removal of any wastes makes perfect sense.
downbeach
New member
I have read a number of misconceptions of how to maintain a DSB, i.e. stirred, siphoned/vacuumed, etc., and what will keep it healthy, and what will cause its failure. Reading this article thoroughly will help to get a better understanding of its benefits, and how it should be built and maintained. What are beneficial animals, and which one's to avoid.
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Here are a couple a couple "kits" that are beneficial, both at start up, and as an occasional booster(every couple years in my case).
http://www.ipsf.com/livesand.html
http://www.ipsf.com/reefworms.html
Here is one article explaining why you don't want sand sifting gobies:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-09/hcs3/index.php
This reasoning applies to any type of sand sifting animal that will prey on the micro-fauna that is important for the health of the sand bed.
To the point of removing solid matter/clumps from the top of a sand bed, although I didn't have any clumping, I did however occasionally remove an accumulation of broken pieces of coral skeleton's, empty snail shells, etc. using an old fish net.
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Here are a couple a couple "kits" that are beneficial, both at start up, and as an occasional booster(every couple years in my case).
http://www.ipsf.com/livesand.html
http://www.ipsf.com/reefworms.html
Here is one article explaining why you don't want sand sifting gobies:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-09/hcs3/index.php
This reasoning applies to any type of sand sifting animal that will prey on the micro-fauna that is important for the health of the sand bed.
To the point of removing solid matter/clumps from the top of a sand bed, although I didn't have any clumping, I did however occasionally remove an accumulation of broken pieces of coral skeleton's, empty snail shells, etc. using an old fish net.
AudiSportB5S4
New member
I had a few snails, and some blue hermits to tackle the algae but they weren't doing shiznit!
I got two starry lightfoot crabs two weekends ago, and literally my whole sand bed is clean now. They got right to work and started sifting crap right off the grainy sand, it was great.
I got two starry lightfoot crabs two weekends ago, and literally my whole sand bed is clean now. They got right to work and started sifting crap right off the grainy sand, it was great.
Similar threads
