Seahorses connected to my reef @ 79-81 degrees?

[Texastravis]

I have a 200 gallon reef with a verry large refugium underneath it (100 gallons). I have a Calcium reactor, phosbane reactor, and my top off water goes through a kalk reactor. My skimmer is the REEFLO 250. My temps stay at a constant 79-81 degrees with an Aquacontroler III

With this in mind I would like to plumb a seahorse tank to my reef tank. (perhaps a 30-55 gallon).

MY QUESTION: is 79-81 degrees ok for seahorses?! I hear mix opinions. ORA's website says 75-85 aquacultured. I would definately get TR/CB seahorses and not WC.

Does this set up seem suitable? Thanks

 

[ann83]

You might be able to get away with temperatures at 76-78 with that large a water volume, but I definately wouldn't go higher than 78 degrees. Typically, you really want to stay between 70-74 for the tropical species, even if they are captive bred.

 

[eisaiasjr]

Texas

Texas

Hello:

Persoanlly I run my SH tank @ 72 c, however... Erectus SH are a caribean species and technically it would survive temps of upto 86 degress. The issue is that the higher the temperature of a tank the more bacteria, etc that it will grow.

Seahorses have 2 issues working against them.

1) they have a very weak immune system in comparison to other fishes which makes them easy target for Ich and other common deceases found in an aquarium
2) they are passive which means that any tankmate that picks on them will cause stress which would ultimately shock the SHs immune system, making it even more suceptible to decease.

To add to this, you must keep in mind that they are very delicate eaters which dont react well to competition for food, in essence you will need to target feed them to make sure they eat EVERY DAY.

Bottom line, if you have a well establised system and you have never had ICK of any other decease you might be able to get away with having SHs in your tank, it has been done before and I have seen many posts of people that keep SHs in their reeftank however I would advice against it.

also... very bright lights (like MHs used in reeftanks) stimulates Melanin production in SHs which darkens them making them very dark brown or even black.

Regards,

E

P.S. this was discussed in more depth in this thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1445772

 

[pledosophy]

Re: Texas

Re: Texas

IMO you'd be better off running the seahorses has a stand alone system. Easier to control the temp, the excess waste won't pollute your reef tank. Better for everyone.

Depending on the size tank and bioload you go with you don't need that much equipment at all for a seahorse system. For example in my planted style (ya a couple corals to) seahorse tank there is no mechanical filtration, a couple pumps (return and closed loop) and a refugium in the cabinet. Done deal.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13198820#post13198820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eisaiasjr
Persoanlly I run my SH tank @ 72 c, however... Erectus SH are a caribean species and technically it would survive temps of upto 86 degress. The issue is that the higher the temperature of a tank the more bacteria, etc that it will grow.

It's not just the population of the bacteria that increases with the temperature. The strains of bacteria that are most common to affect seahorses actually change there protein structure at these higher temperatures. So while the bacteria is producing at a much greater rate (up to duplicating itself every twenty minutes) it is also becoming more virtulent (aggresive) at the same time. The seahorses will often be asymptomatic carriers of these bacterias themselves but at the higher temperature with the altered strucutre they now have no or little resistance to the bacteria. Larger populations of the bacteria are known to cause problems.

1) they have a very weak immune system in comparison to other fishes which makes them easy target for Ich and other common deceases found in an aquarium

Ich is not really a common problem with seahorses. It can present on the gills but is failry rare. There are more prone to internal parasites but if you are getting CB seahorses and feed CB or frozen food this should not be an issue for you.

To add to this, you must keep in mind that they are very delicate eaters which dont react well to competition for food, in essence you will need to target feed them to make sure they eat EVERY DAY.

That is a very old school line of thinking. I've been keeping seahorses for a little while now (8 years) and don't target feed unless I am training a WC to frozen. I find training to a feeding dish is far easier in the long run and better for my system since the excess food is easily removed.

also... very bright lights (like MHs used in reeftanks) stimulates Melanin production in SHs which darkens them making them very dark brown or even black.

IME it does not. I have kpet seahorses with a good amount of light from T5's and from MH's and have not noticed a color shift toward the darker spectrum IME. My seahorses have been white, orange, red, and yellow. Never brown or black. IMO/IME color has more to do with surrounding and stress then it does with lighting level.

 

[Texastravis]

I think some of yall have misunderstood. I want to PLUMB a sea horse tank to my reef tank. I would have about 6 sea horses in a 50 gallon tall aquarium that is connected to my 200 reef. The sea horses would be all lone and would be very easy to target feed. The total water volume in the sytstem would be around 350 gallons. Im not too worried about the "bioload" I have a Reeflo 250 skimmer that sits beside the big tank and it is rated for 700 gallon systems and pulls a lot of muck along with my 100 gallon refugium.

I dont think "ick" would be a problem.

My water conditions/quality are perfect leaving me with the only thing to worry about for my seahorses is the 79-81 degree temps.

So my question again is this: With optimal water conditions and the fact that the sea horses would be in a tall tank by themselves would they do fine with 79-81 temps, possibly 82

 

[ann83]

I've weighed in on the water temperature issue and so has pledosophy (it really is worth it to read through all of his ramblings, he does usually get it right ). Like I said, I would not take seahorses above 78 degrees (and thats pushing it, I strongly suggest 70-74 degrees); and even then, you'd need a very large water volume, and you'd probably need to be keeping H. comes. There are several reasons, but the biggest is what pledosophy mentioned about bacterial reproduction and protein mutation (3rd paragraph). I think that the seperate stand-alone system that pledosophy mentioned is the best option.

 

[mollymonticello]

We get this question a lot. This answer is RIGHT ON, Pledosophy!

"It's not just the population of the bacteria that increases with the temperature. The strains of bacteria that are most common to affect seahorses actually change there protein structure at these higher temperatures. So while the bacteria is producing at a much greater rate (up to duplicating itself every twenty minutes) it is also becoming more virtulent (aggresive) at the same time. The seahorses will often be asymptomatic carriers of these bacterias themselves but at the higher temperature with the altered strucutre they now have no or little resistance to the bacteria. Larger populations of the bacteria are known to cause problems."

 

[mhltcob]

Dwarf seahorses (zosterae) will do fine at temps of 82 degrees, and even higher. In fact I know biologist who study them who showed no physiological differences in this particular seahorse species even in temps as high as 29 degrees C in captivity. I know several institutions who keep them in the 80-82 degree range. The water that they live naturally in is regularly as high as 88 degrees.

 

[ann83]

mhltcob, would you care to cite sources or name institutions? Seriously, I'd love to look into it. The more knowledge the better.
I would also love to know the lifespans of these seahorses being kept at those temps in closed systems. It is my understanding that they have very short lifespans at temperatures higher than 76 due to the increased incidence of disease and unexplained death; whereas I know of keepers keeping them for 2+ years at the lower temperatures. Again, tolerable temperatures "naturally" or even in very large systems have very little to do with optimum temperatures in a very small closed system. Bacterial and parasitic dilution through a massive water volume is a huge asset in the ocean that we just don't have in the home aquarium, especially in the typical dwarf setup.

 

[mhltcob]

I will have to ask them because I am not sure if it was published yet or if they even have plans on publishing it. I have seen them personally live for months to about a year - still alive today (after collected as adults for studies) with no sign of disease (temps averaged about 81 degrees). You also use the word "tolerable" as if to indicate that they were under stress but tolerated that stress. However, like I stated earlier these seahorses displayed absolutely no signs of stress at temps around 84 degrees (physiological differences occured closer to 31 degrees celcius). I disagree with your optimum temp in aquarium versus wild statement. If an animal has evolved to function normally at a particular temperature range, it doesn't really matter whether it is in the wild or captivity. I recommend that everybody looks at what conditions the animals they keep recieve in the wild, that is absolutely the best way to determine what conditions they will do best in captivity. Remember that this particular species is found in very shallow grass beds - a couple feet (versus H. erectus which you find more in the10-20 ft). It is subject to heavy condition fluctuation naturally.

 

[eisaiasjr]

Good info

Good info

I got some good info here, thank you for that pledosophy. I am by no means a marine biologist and I have been meerly repeating what I have read OVER AND OVER from many different boards. I guess since seahorses have such a bad survivability rep it has created alot of myths about the species.

Good read!

Regards,

E

 

[ann83]

mhltcob, the problem is that we are talking bacteria here. In the wild, in higher temperatures, the bacteria is free to reproduce quickly and to mutate to more virulent protein strains without seriously adversely affecting the seahorses because of the stability of the water and the emense dillution of the ocean. A home aquarium is very different, especially when you are talking about the very small tanks typically used for dwarf seahorses. At temperatures higher than 74 degrees, the bacteria reproduce at a higher rate and mutate their protein strains (didn't pledo talk about that in this thread). There is no constant dillution in an aquarium, and the seahorses are stuck in a 5 gallon bacteria box, even with daily water changes. Add to that the environmental fluctuations that occur in 5 gallons of water, and the fact that oxygen saturation is lower at the high temperatures, and you have fish who are already prone to bacterial infection living in an enclosed system full of aggressive bacteria, who are under stress from environmental conditions. Those fish are a lot more likely to fall ill than those same fish in the ocean under the same temperatures (because all conditions are not, and can not, be the same). That is why it would be good to know about water volume in the examples you were presenting.

As an aside, I doubt we're talking about dwarf seahorses for this system anyway, since there are numerous other reasons that you wouldn't want to keep dwarf seahorses connected to a reef. Many of the larger species of seahorses can and do migrate to depths when surface temperatures are high; evidence can be found in any number of web sites and publications that log seahorse sightings, even fishbase, and I assure you that you will find sightings quite deep during warmer months. I am not saying that you won't find them in shallow waters in warm months, but then we get into the discussion of which conditions the seahorses "prefer", instead of a discussion of which conditions have provided hobbyists the most success in the artificial conditions of the home aquarium.

 

[mhltcob]

Some seahorses do move to a small degree based on water temperatures but we are not talking from temps of 88 degrees to 74 degrees and lower and so on (that would be a pretty big migration for a seahorse). You also have to keep in mind that these guys can be found in pretty turbid water, they are not going to find suitable substrate at say 100 or 200 feet depth. It is a fact that some species do live in 80-88 degree water. Dwarf seahorses are well known to occur in shallow water and do stay there (tagging studies confirm this).

As far as oxygen saturation goes it is lower at higher temperature but only by a very small factor. You will not have a significant difference in dissolved oxygen from 74 degrees to 84 degrees (at a salinity of 35 ppt, saturation is 6.97 mg/L at 74 degrees and 6.349 mg/L at 84 degrees).

I question whether people have actually diagnosed vibrio infections and how they are able to relate the infections with the "stress" of higher temperatures. Vibrio infections are not something that you can just look at a fish and diagnose, even under necropsy. There are not that many people, and probably noone on these boards, that is able to properly culture and identify bacteria strains.

I would concentrate more on keeping water quality good and less about keeping a low temperature. It will be fine to keep them at 74 degrees but there are people who simply cannot do that. In these cases it is fine to keep them higher. Stressors and open wounds typically are the precursors to bacterial infection, not higher temperature.

 

[DanU]

A few points FWIW.

I have personally found both H. erectus and H. zosterae in the grass flats at low tide with temperatures as high as 92 degrees in the Indian River Lagoon. This is a far different than the tiny little box we call an aquarium.

I don't know how many customers I have talked with or exactly how many seahorses I have sold, but I do know I have yet to have anyone tell me they have kept the same seahorses for at least 18 months at temperatures above 78 degrees. There may be some, but I haven't found them. The average hobbyist will lose them within a few months at temperatures above 78.

I do believe they have a chance with larger systems. The system describe increases the odds and if you are diligent & meticulous enough, may work. Still, I wouldn't take the chance and would run the seahorse tank separate at a lower temp or lower the temp on the whole system. In a system that is 1,000 to 2,000 gallons, I suspect they would do fine if lightly stocked.

When you talk with people who have kept the same seahorses for several years, you will find they have kept their temperatures down.

Dan

 

[philter4]

DanU, I don't want to start an argument but I've posted before and I keep my seahorses at 80* and have the same trio for over 3 years, (my tank is a 75 tall, same foot print as a 40 reg but taller) they were collected by me in the inlet at lake worth where the water temp is usually above 83* and at times of the year up to 88*. I have had them in the past and always kept them in trop temps and never had a problem. I may be an exception, and if you look at my posts on temp I always tell people that wild are different then captive and that just because I do it, it isn't the norm for keeping healthy sea horses, but it can be done.

 

[DanU]

I am not wanting to argue either! I had the impression from the previous posts you were supporting higher temperatures. My apologies if I was wrong.

I am assuming from your post, you have kept the same seahorses and not had to replace them. I have not found other hobbyists that have. I am not including institutions or professional breeders. I do think it is worth noting that some institutions do keep their seahorse tanks cooler because they have less health issues at cooler temperatures.

I try not to use the words "never" and "impossible" in this hobby. Too many times someone achieves something others have failed at. I do however try to recommend what is known to work for most and don't recommend what is known not to work for most.

Someone mentioned earlier that H. erectus are a Caribbean species. Actually H. erectus are found along the entire east coast of the United States including New England. They are collected regularly in the Chesapeake and Long Island Sound. The temperatures that these horses have adapted to are much cooler than those found in Southern Florida. Unfortunately, when one buys a seahorse they rarely know where they originate from or in the case of captive bred, what their lineage is.

Texastravis let us know what you decide.

Dan

 

[jjackson]

Re: Texas

Re: Texas

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13198820#post13198820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eisaiasjr
Hello:

Persoanlly I run my SH tank @ 72 c, however... Erectus SH are a caribean species and technically it would survive temps of upto 86 degress. The issue is that the higher the temperature of a tank the more bacteria, etc that it will grow.

I think you meant @ 72 f.... 72c is 161 degrees f

 

[pledosophy]

Re: Good info

Re: Good info

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13208961#post13208961 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eisaiasjr
I got some good info here, thank you for that pledosophy. I am by no means a marine biologist and I have been meerly repeating what I have read OVER AND OVER from many different boards. I guess since seahorses have such a bad survivability rep it has created alot of myths about the species.

Good read!

Regards,

E

I'm glad you found it useful. I have a lot of respect for Pete, I just disagree with a lot of his thoughts. Just two different ways to approach the hobby. He's a swell guy though.

 

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13213913#post13213913 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mhltcob
I question whether people have actually diagnosed vibrio infections and how they are able to relate the infections with the "stress" of higher temperatures. Vibrio infections are not something that you can just look at a fish and diagnose, even under necropsy. There are not that many people, and probably noone on these boards, that is able to properly culture and identify bacteria strains.

Studies have been done. Speeches have been made. Books have been published. Articles written, and reviewed. Not sure what your looking for.

It is not that complicated to diagnose a bacterial infection, it is somewhat harder to diagnose the difference between myco and various strains of vibrio for a hobbyist who is using there eyes to diagnose. Vibrio (one of several different strains) is the most common bacterial problem with seahorses and is also well documented.

Different University's (including Shedd's and OSU) as well as private pathologist have studied seahorses and cultured many different strains of vibrio in necropsy. You can read some about it in the book Working Notes.

Culturing and identifying the bacteria is a bit tricky, and there are times when the grown out culture can not be determined for certain.

So far many different strains of vibrio have been found in seahorses including:
V. alginolyticus
V. fluvialis
V. parahaemolyticus
V. vulnificus
V hollisae
V. damsela
V. cholera

Mycobacteeria marinum and nocardia has also been cultured as well but with far less frequency.

I would concentrate more on keeping water quality good and less about keeping a low temperature. It will be fine to keep them at 74 degrees but there are people who simply cannot do that. In these cases it is fine to keep them higher. Stressors and open wounds typically are the precursors to bacterial infection, not higher temperature. [/B]

Anyone can keep a seahorse at proper temperatures. There is equipment designed to do this. If you can not keep the livestock you wish in suitable conditions, it is better off to choose a different type of pet IMO.

Keeping good water quality is always good. Beyond getting your parameters right, going through a rigid QT protocol with all new inhabitants will greatly aid the success of a seahorse tank IMO. That means everything gets QT for at least 6 weeks, 12 preferred.

After following the seahorse side of the hobby for the last 8 years now, IMO it is not a coincidence we are seeing so much less disease now with seahorses then we were 5 years ago, IMO a big part of this is temperature.

JMO, HTH

 

[mhltcob]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13224691#post13224691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy
Studies have been done. Speeches have been made. Books have been published. Articles written, and reviewed. Not sure what your looking for.

It is not that complicated to diagnose a bacterial infection, it is somewhat harder to diagnose the difference between myco and various strains of vibrio for a hobbyist who is using there eyes to diagnose. Vibrio (one of several different strains) is the most common bacterial problem with seahorses and is also well documented.

Different University's (including Shedd's and OSU) as well as private pathologist have studied seahorses and cultured many different strains of vibrio in necropsy. You can read some about it in the book Working Notes.

Culturing and identifying the bacteria is a bit tricky, and there are times when the grown out culture can not be determined for certain.

So far many different strains of vibrio have been found in seahorses including:
V. alginolyticus
V. fluvialis
V. parahaemolyticus
V. vulnificus
V hollisae
V. damsela
V. cholera

Mycobacteeria marinum and nocardia has also been cultured as well but with far less frequency.


Anyone can keep a seahorse at proper temperatures. There is equipment designed to do this. If you can not keep the livestock you wish in suitable conditions, it is better off to choose a different type of pet IMO.

Keeping good water quality is always good. Beyond getting your parameters right, going through a rigid QT protocol with all new inhabitants will greatly aid the success of a seahorse tank IMO. That means everything gets QT for at least 6 weeks, 12 preferred.

After following the seahorse side of the hobby for the last 8 years now, IMO it is not a coincidence we are seeing so much less disease now with seahorses then we were 5 years ago, IMO a big part of this is temperature.

JMO, HTH

I disagree about it not being that difficult to diagnose a bacterial infection. Most hobbyist would be unable to tell whether the infection that they are seeing is bacterial or parasitic (I often see hobbyist diagnose any reddening as bacterial). The vast majority of hobbyist are unable to accurately diagnose protozoan infections, and even less are able to diagnose bacterial infections. The different bacteria leave signs of their presence but it is impossible to diagnose without isolating and culturing them. You cannot look at a seahorse and tell that it has vibrio.

Also, to say that all vibrio sp. would act aggressively at say 80 degrees and significantly less so at 74 degrees is a bit presumptive. First, the temperature range in which we work with may or may not make a significant difference in both behavior of the bacteria and growth rate. Also, the different species may or may not act similarly. Finally the species may increase until a certain temperature and than decline thereafter. I would be interested in which studies you are referencing.

As far as keeping the "proper" temperature, to keep a tank at 74 or lower in some climates requires a chiller. This is not exactly an inexpensive piece of equipment. 74 degrees is also a bit chilly for some of the other organisms that we keep with the seahorses (and in fact chilly for some species of seahorses themselves who may never see lower than 78 degrees in the winter).