Shark pond

[MonsterFishBook]

I am wanting to build a shark pond, 14x10x3 is the dimensions as of now. Right now, I'm wondering if my stock is OK. I will be filtering the 3,000 gallons of water with degassing towers and large bead filters as well as live rock. For sharks and stingrays:
-2 coral catsharks
-1 shovelnose shark
-1 gray smoothhound
-POSSIBLY 1 short tail nurse shark
-1 blue dotted stingray (normal, not ribbontail)
-1 banded houndshark
-1 brown banded bamboo shark
-1 horn shark
-2 epaulette sharks
-1 yellow stingray

For the other fish in the tank
-1 red emperor snapper
-1 pinktail trigger
-1 sargassum trigger
-1 cuban hogfish
-1 harlequin tusk
-1 majestic angel
-1 radiata lionfish
-1 atlantic spadefish
-1 naso tang
-1 moorish idol
-1 blue line grouper
-2 zebra eels
-1 yellow tang
-1 miniatus grouper
-1 threadfin snapper
-1 powder brown tang
-2 striped squirrelfish
-1 bicolor goatfish
-1 snowflake moray eel

Thank you!

Oh, PS - there will be minimal rockwork, with maybe 100 to 200 pounds piled up with a large cave at the bottom, and it will only go up so far that the sharks can just barely swim over it. Temperature will be at around 70 degrees for those cooler-water sharks. Also, what could I expect from adding an achilles tang in? I would replace something with it.

 

[slief]

Seems to me that some of the fish like the shovel nose, horn and smooth gray are colder water fish while most of the others are warm water. The Lion could cause issues if one of the Sharks spooks and runs into it.

 

[MonsterFishBook]

Seems to me that some of the fish like the shovel nose, horn and smooth gray are colder water fish while most of the others are warm water. The Lion could cause issues if one of the Sharks spooks and runs into it.

Well, the species you listed prefer 70-72 degree temperatures, and can tolerate up to almost 80. The reason they don't prefer the warmer waters is because of the lower DO levels - however if I run multiple degassing columns, that can put a lot of oxygen back into the water. So I could potentially get away with keeping them, more likely I could than could not.

Other than that, does the stocking level seem OK? Any conflicts other than the lionfish? I'll remove it from the list since some of those sharks tend to spazz out at times.

The main thing I would like to know is; is it too full?

 

[slief]

Well, the species you listed prefer 70-72 degree temperatures, and can tolerate up to almost 80. The reason they don't prefer the warmer waters is because of the lower DO levels - however if I run multiple degassing columns, that can put a lot of oxygen back into the water. So I could potentially get away with keeping them, more likely I could than could not.

Other than that, does the stocking level seem OK? Any conflicts other than the lionfish? I'll remove it from the list since some of those sharks tend to spazz out at times.

The main thing I would like to know is; is it too full?

The species I mentioned are often collected here locally in So. Cal and generally prefer temps below 70* which is why I brought that up. Granted, there may be some collected in warmer waters as well. It's often not a case of dissolved organics but instead the species ability to adapt to warmer waters. At least in my experience with keeping these specific species in my tanks which were very well oxygenated.

Anyhow, to answer your question, a general rule of thumb is 1/2" of fish per gallon. You should also factor in girth. If the system is well established with plenty of biological filtration, that will help as will sufficient water changes.

I would suggest joining the shark and ray Facebook group as there are a couple curators from larger aquariums who may be better suited to answer your questions.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/429580500551376/

I'd also suggest joining the MFK forum as there are many shark/ray keepers there as well.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/

 

[alprazo]

Food for thought.

Three brief stories.

First, I put a 20 inch weakfish (sea trout) into my epaulette tank. I thought it was big enough to fend off the eppies. FYI - My smallest eppie is now ~ 24 and the biggest about 28. All mature and probably full grown.

The within two days, an eppie decided to lounge and attacked the side of the trout ripping out a large chunk and exposing its intestines. It died minutes later.

Second - I caught a small ~ 10 inch southern ray. I put into a tank that had a small ~ 2 inch grey trigger (also caught). The trigger nipped at the tail of the ray until it developed a bacterial infection and died.

Third, I had a large miniatus grouper ~12 inch. My wobbegong decided to eat it one day. The fish died of course and the wobbegong began to float upside down at the surface as the gases from digestion filled its stomach. I had to burp the shark several times and by the grace of god it survived.

Moral of the story - when you mix fish and sharks - one if not both has a great chance at dying. There are many more stories of how angels ate the eyes of eppies, horn sharks particularly like eppie and other shark eyes, angles and trigger picking at horn sharks, and groupers and snappers out competing the sharks for food. Also, any fish that beds down at night, goatfish, triggers, hogfish, snappers, etc... will be an easy meal.

My two cents.

 

[MonsterFishBook]

Food for thought.

Three brief stories.

First, I put a 20 inch weakfish (sea trout) into my epaulette tank. I thought it was big enough to fend off the eppies. FYI - My smallest eppie is now ~ 24 and the biggest about 28. All mature and probably full grown.

The within two days, an eppie decided to lounge and attacked the side of the trout ripping out a large chunk and exposing its intestines. It died minutes later.

Second - I caught a small ~ 10 inch southern ray. I put into a tank that had a small ~ 2 inch grey trigger (also caught). The trigger nipped at the tail of the ray until it developed a bacterial infection and died.

Third, I had a large miniatus grouper ~12 inch. My wobbegong decided to eat it one day. The fish died of course and the wobbegong began to float upside down at the surface as the gases from digestion filled its stomach. I had to burp the shark several times and by the grace of god it survived.

Moral of the story - when you mix fish and sharks - one if not both has a great chance at dying. There are many more stories of how angels ate the eyes of eppies, horn sharks particularly like eppie and other shark eyes, angles and trigger picking at horn sharks, and groupers and snappers out competing the sharks for food. Also, any fish that beds down at night, goatfish, triggers, hogfish, snappers, etc... will be an easy meal.

My two cents.

Good point, that's interesting that the eppies went for something that large. For fish, how about:
-All of the tangs (I believe they constantly swim, no?)
-The eels (would be fine, they'd stay in the rock)
-The threadfin snapper (I'm willing to take a chance, this is an amazing fish)
-The groupers (I would find it hard to believe the smaller sharks I have selected would be able to eat a 12" grouper, whole as least - I would also imagine they wouldn't have the balls to do it )
-The squirrelfish (cheap and fast, I'm willing to take a risk)

What have you kept successfully with sharks?

 

[alprazo]

To be honest, the only thing that I have been able to keep successfully for a long time with my sharks are oysters and clams from the supermarket and the Protoreaster genus of starfish. Crabs, cleaner shrimp, cleaner wrasses, horseshoe crabs, hermit crabs, never seem to make it. I was going to try Pompano this summer, because they never stop swimming nor slow down, but they had something and couldn't make it out of quarantine.

I even had a grouper kill my first eppie that I purchased ~ 1989. In 1999 the grouper spooked when someone entered into the room and slammed into the gills of the eppie killing it.

Maybe I have had bad luck when it comes to mixing teleosts and elasmobranchs but the horror stories seem to be much more common than the success stories. Griseum on this board has a mixed population. Maybe he has some better ideas.

 

[MonsterFishBook]

Instead of the banded houndshark, would it matter if I changed it to a leopard shark? Same conditions, and same size.

 

[MonsterFishBook]

To be honest, the only thing that I have been able to keep successfully for a long time with my sharks are oysters and clams from the supermarket and the Protoreaster genus of starfish. Crabs, cleaner shrimp, cleaner wrasses, horseshoe crabs, hermit crabs, never seem to make it. I was going to try Pompano this summer, because they never stop swimming nor slow down, but they had something and couldn't make it out of quarantine.

I even had a grouper kill my first eppie that I purchased ~ 1989. In 1999 the grouper spooked when someone entered into the room and slammed into the gills of the eppie killing it.

Maybe I have had bad luck when it comes to mixing teleosts and elasmobranchs but the horror stories seem to be much more common than the success stories. Griseum on this board has a mixed population. Maybe he has some better ideas.

Thanks! I think I want to try teleosts, I've seen people keeping those fish with sharks before, that's why I asked about them specifically. I would imagine pompano would do pretty well with benthics. Do you keep ORVs at all or just benthics?

 

[alprazo]

Just benthics. Realize that the minimum size for a leopard is 36" unless you want to defend yourself against a Lacey Act charge. If going with a 3 ft plus shark - I would suggest starting with a 16' diameter pool.

It is easy to mix fish and sharks, if you have long term success please share it.

I wonder how this one turned out

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_g-CB0dOPgw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[MonsterFishBook]

Just benthics. Realize that the minimum size for a leopard is 36" unless you want to defend yourself against a Lacey Act charge. If going with a 3 ft plus shark - I would suggest starting with a 16' diameter pool.

It is easy to mix fish and sharks, if you have long term success please share it.

I wonder how this one turned out

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_g-CB0dOPgw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lol, I'm sure it turned out great. That's a banded houndshark in the video, the swimming one that isn't a BTR. Beautiful sharks but not as good as the leopard.

 

[alprazo]

Japanese bullhead, black tip reef sharks, smoothhound, banded hound shark, and a wobbiegong. I would bet the tank had been running, with that livestock, for less than a week.

 

[MonsterFishBook]

Japanese bullhead, black tip reef sharks, smoothhound, banded hound shark, and a wobbiegong. I would bet the tank had been running, with that livestock, for less than a week.

I wouldn't even do that in a 10,000 or a 25,000 or a 50,000 gallon tank. The wobbie is going to eat everything it can when it grows up, the banded hound is a cooler water species, smoothhound is also a cool, if not cold, water shark, Japanese bullhead is as well, the BTR is tropical, there's just so much wrong here. In that tank, maybe 700 gallons - no way it lasted.

Although it was probably running a bit longer than a week - where can you buy a BTR that's almost 3 feet long?

 

[Dmorty217]

where can you buy a BTR that's almost 3 feet long?

There are places you can get them from but most you see will come as a result of the original purchasers poor attempt (if any) at research before buying and the result is the 3ft BTR that has been a passed around to larger and larger tanks

 

[MonsterFishBook]

There are places you can get them from but most you see will come as a result of the original purchasers poor attempt (if any) at research before buying and the result is the 3ft BTR that has been a passed around to larger and larger tanks

Yeah, and even finding a BTR that has survived in an inexperienced owner's tank, especially to 3 feet, actually for sale is rare. Usually the idiots want to keep it until it dies which usually isn't long

 

[enjetek]

Ok so here's my my take on this. Don't add the lion fish as one ***** and it won't be fun. The sting rays may get picked on if the Sharks want to attack the discs of the ray - not outright death but you would hate to see them getting harassed. And the eels might not be safe since the sharks can still halfway swallow them and thrash them side to side. On top of that there will be a lot of food going out to feed them bad boys. Maybe it will happen maybe it won't to you but you've been told.

 

[enjetek]

Also alprazo and some other that have chimed in are very experienced so their advice is solid and sound. I would suggest listening to them since they will give you good info.

 

[Fishfirst]

The species I mentioned are often collected here locally in So. Cal and generally prefer temps below 70* which is why I brought that up. Granted, there may be some collected in warmer waters as well. It's often NOT a case of dissolved organics but instead the species ability to adapt to warmer waters. At least in my experience with keeping these specific species in my tanks which were very well oxygenated.

Anyhow, to answer your question, a general rule of thumb is 1/2" of fish per gallon. You should also factor in girth. If the system is well established with plenty of biological filtration, that will help as will sufficient water changes.

I would suggest joining the shark and ray Facebook group as there are a couple curators from larger aquariums who may be better suited to answer your questions.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/429580500551376/

I'd also suggest joining the MFK forum as there are many shark/ray keepers there as well.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/

The Facebook group is awesome!