Shark Tank Again
- Thread starter mdiddy7s
- Start date
rnelson
Shark Obsessed
Marc,
I have a medium-sized Euroreef on my reef tank now.....I will buy another medium-large skimmer and use both on the new tank....4" sand bed and a refugium. I have several Fluval 404's that I will use for chemical/biological filtration. I have a small FBF that I once used on a 125gal but it would probably be too small to be of much use for the new tank.....I may use it anyway since it's just sitting around right now. Having a basically FOWLR tank with sharks/rays makes it hard to maintain a standard cleanup crew, so I will have to keep a constant eye on nitrate/phosphate levels.
I like reef tanks myself, but my primary interest is fish, so that's my main focus. I'll still maintain some corals in the new tank but it will be strictly softies and not much of them.
I have a medium-sized Euroreef on my reef tank now.....I will buy another medium-large skimmer and use both on the new tank....4" sand bed and a refugium. I have several Fluval 404's that I will use for chemical/biological filtration. I have a small FBF that I once used on a 125gal but it would probably be too small to be of much use for the new tank.....I may use it anyway since it's just sitting around right now. Having a basically FOWLR tank with sharks/rays makes it hard to maintain a standard cleanup crew, so I will have to keep a constant eye on nitrate/phosphate levels.
I like reef tanks myself, but my primary interest is fish, so that's my main focus. I'll still maintain some corals in the new tank but it will be strictly softies and not much of them.
clekchau
Premium Member
here is a cool article on building an indoor pond on wetwebmedia
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i1/pondDIYCalfo/diy-pond.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i1/pondDIYCalfo/diy-pond.htm
Everything sounds fine except the fluidized bed. Do not use the lifegaurd fluidized bed filter due to their problems of restarting and the small size. You will not get enough turnover per hour from that small unit. So it would be useless to keep up with the bioload. Have you looked into a wet dry? Use that instead of the Fluvals for carbon and detritus. The liverock alone would be to weak to deal with so much waste created by the fish alone. Do youself a favor and use a wetdry as an insurance policy. Also you need all the room you can get in the display tank. Refugium is a good idea to. Try to have a large enough one though or you may not see the positive results coming from the refugium if it is to small. UV's are good also. In my experience at a public aquarium a long few years ago taught me you cannot rely heavely on liverock itself to perform the job of a biological filter. Ammonia levels rise quickly after feeding and decomposition of food and the liverock may not be enough to efficiently and QUICKLY get rid of the waste and convert it to the end product of nitrate. That is the key for FO Tanks as well as preditor tanks. Reefs can handle it because people don't normaly overstock there reefs with full of fish.
Marc
Marc
clekchau
Premium Member
what about a super efficient skimmer to get rid of the waste? my fo will not have a wet/dry or fluidized filter but purely a huge and efficient skimmer, live rock, remote deep sand bed and a big refugium. it will not be heavily stocked but will not be lightly stocked either. i don't feel a wet dry is absolutely necessary.
CleKchau
Like I said before. Melson said he had a Euroreef skimmer plus a second one I believe Melson wants to use on his setup. That is perfectly fine. From what I understand Melson is getting a large tank in which he wants to keep a couple sharks, stingrays, and fish in harmony in a large tank. YES a wet dry is NECESSARY becuase of the large fish load he plans to keep. Sharks create a lot of waste as do most large fish and rays and it is defenently an insurance policy and neccessity. Liverock alone cannot be the holy grail in biological filtration. Just because it's natural does not mean its going to be effeicent enough to handle a large bioload. Thats the point of a wet dry. Just because some of you want to argue and go on and on about wet drys not being neccessary and becoming nitrate factories does not mean that everyone has to follow the same rules or believes as you may. I have a FO tank with a ray and my wet dry is running 24/7 without nitrate problems. Not everyone has to follow the same rules you would use on a berlin method reef. Large tanks fish large fish and sharks need external biological filtration period!
Thank You,
Marc
Like I said before. Melson said he had a Euroreef skimmer plus a second one I believe Melson wants to use on his setup. That is perfectly fine. From what I understand Melson is getting a large tank in which he wants to keep a couple sharks, stingrays, and fish in harmony in a large tank. YES a wet dry is NECESSARY becuase of the large fish load he plans to keep. Sharks create a lot of waste as do most large fish and rays and it is defenently an insurance policy and neccessity. Liverock alone cannot be the holy grail in biological filtration. Just because it's natural does not mean its going to be effeicent enough to handle a large bioload. Thats the point of a wet dry. Just because some of you want to argue and go on and on about wet drys not being neccessary and becoming nitrate factories does not mean that everyone has to follow the same rules or believes as you may. I have a FO tank with a ray and my wet dry is running 24/7 without nitrate problems. Not everyone has to follow the same rules you would use on a berlin method reef. Large tanks fish large fish and sharks need external biological filtration period!
Thank You,
Marc
clekchau
Premium Member
on one sentence you speak about how someone should not have to follow a specific rule and on the other hand you say there is only one surefire way to have filteration in a shart tank and that is with a wet dry. how ironic LOL
seen huge bioloads that have very low nitrates and very healthy fish, all from live rock. a good example would be wayne shang's aquarium which has about 40 fish including 15 large angelfish all in a 300 gallon i believe, all fitered by live rock and refugium, nitrates at zero, fish are absolutely spectacular. he wrote a book about it called "the captive marine aquarium" and it's also featured in ultimate aquariums by michale paletta, check it out.
many different ways to do things, i'm not saying one way is better than the next, do what works for YOU, no wet drys in a fo works for me, has for many many years
seen huge bioloads that have very low nitrates and very healthy fish, all from live rock. a good example would be wayne shang's aquarium which has about 40 fish including 15 large angelfish all in a 300 gallon i believe, all fitered by live rock and refugium, nitrates at zero, fish are absolutely spectacular. he wrote a book about it called "the captive marine aquarium" and it's also featured in ultimate aquariums by michale paletta, check it out.
many different ways to do things, i'm not saying one way is better than the next, do what works for YOU, no wet drys in a fo works for me, has for many many years
Thats your opinion, but from my experience in setting up shark tanks we tried to do the same thing with the liverock berlin method and had the tank crash on us with a huge ammonia spike that killed two leopards. We thought we had enough rock but sometimes you never know. I am trying to give strong recommendations in order to be safe than sorry. I have seen Wayne Shangs tank online and he has a very large amount of liverock in order for that tank to thrive. You cannot have that much liverock in a display tank or the shark would not be able to move around! This is why I am pushing the wet dry. Plus it is a lot cheaper to have a wetdry and easier to clean then with liverock anyway. There are all kinds of setups out there with different animal requirments and I am expressing my recommendations based soly as a shark tank setup. End of story. I just don't understand why many of you on reef central have to argue about the same thing over and over again just to try to win with your own opinions and believes.
Marc
Marc
clekchau
Premium Member
you are right about sharks and rays, a wet dry is preferred however not necessary (look at energy's 1700 gallon stingray reef which accomplishes that task with alot of live rock and a super efficient skimmer that is similar to mine).
however with a fo tank (angels, tangs, triggers, wrasses) you do not need a wet dry. of course a wet dry is cheaper, cheaper isn't the argument.
btw certain sharks can thrive in a tank full of live rock because it's how they live in their natural habitat, in crowded conditions but since you are a "shark" expert you already knew this.
perhaps you should re read my last sentence in the previous post where i indicated there are many different ways to do things, not just MY way, not trying to push my opinion over and over again down anyone's throat, unlike well nevermind
btw i'm not sure what you meant by a wet dry being easier to clean than live rock because from my experience it's the opposite, live rock is much more maintenance free than a wet/dry, do you mean the detritus that settles under the live rock?
however with a fo tank (angels, tangs, triggers, wrasses) you do not need a wet dry. of course a wet dry is cheaper, cheaper isn't the argument.
btw certain sharks can thrive in a tank full of live rock because it's how they live in their natural habitat, in crowded conditions but since you are a "shark" expert you already knew this.
perhaps you should re read my last sentence in the previous post where i indicated there are many different ways to do things, not just MY way, not trying to push my opinion over and over again down anyone's throat, unlike well nevermind
btw i'm not sure what you meant by a wet dry being easier to clean than live rock because from my experience it's the opposite, live rock is much more maintenance free than a wet/dry, do you mean the detritus that settles under the live rock?
krj-1168
Member
IMPO - ponds are much better for shark or rays than any normal home aquarium.
More swimming room, & more surface area(O2 exchange) the shark, and can even cooler to look at than a normal large aquarium.
When it comes to shark ponds or any saltwater pond. Filtration doesn't increase at the same rate as pond size - it increases at a slower rate.
Here's what I mean.
Take a 300 gallon shark pond - the filtration rate is roughly the same as a 300 gallon shark tank. At least 5-6 x tank/pond volume per hour or at least 1500-1800 gallons per hr.
Now take a 3000 gallon shark pond. Which may have at least 6x the surface area of a 300 gallon tank. And 10x the volume. Which means to raise the nitrates by 1 ppm in the 3000 gallon tank, then it would take 10 x the amount of waste that it would take to raise the 300 by the same 1 ppm. So generally for ponds around 3000 gallon the filtration system only need to turn over about 3-4 x the pond volume per hr (9,000-12,000 gallons).
If you go to a 30,000 gallon pool (say a inground swimming pool -converted to a shark pool), then your talking about 40-45x the surface area and about 100x the volume of the 300 gallon tank.
The filtration system for a 30,000 gallon tank only need to be about 2-3 x the pools volume per hr(60,000 to 90,000 gallons).
Think I'm wrong - then look at one of the largest sharks tanks in the U.S. - the 6 million gallon tank at the Atlanta Aquarium. It holds 4 half grown Whale Sharks (about 15-20 ft in length), as well as several other 6-12ft sharks. It's filtration system cycles about 4 million gallons per hour(or 2/3 of it's entire volume).
More swimming room, & more surface area(O2 exchange) the shark, and can even cooler to look at than a normal large aquarium.
When it comes to shark ponds or any saltwater pond. Filtration doesn't increase at the same rate as pond size - it increases at a slower rate.
Here's what I mean.
Take a 300 gallon shark pond - the filtration rate is roughly the same as a 300 gallon shark tank. At least 5-6 x tank/pond volume per hour or at least 1500-1800 gallons per hr.
Now take a 3000 gallon shark pond. Which may have at least 6x the surface area of a 300 gallon tank. And 10x the volume. Which means to raise the nitrates by 1 ppm in the 3000 gallon tank, then it would take 10 x the amount of waste that it would take to raise the 300 by the same 1 ppm. So generally for ponds around 3000 gallon the filtration system only need to turn over about 3-4 x the pond volume per hr (9,000-12,000 gallons).
If you go to a 30,000 gallon pool (say a inground swimming pool -converted to a shark pool), then your talking about 40-45x the surface area and about 100x the volume of the 300 gallon tank.
The filtration system for a 30,000 gallon tank only need to be about 2-3 x the pools volume per hr(60,000 to 90,000 gallons).
Think I'm wrong - then look at one of the largest sharks tanks in the U.S. - the 6 million gallon tank at the Atlanta Aquarium. It holds 4 half grown Whale Sharks (about 15-20 ft in length), as well as several other 6-12ft sharks. It's filtration system cycles about 4 million gallons per hour(or 2/3 of it's entire volume).
Puffer Queen
New member
I have a 1000 gallon shark pond with 2 bio-towers (wet/dry), a large skimmer, a remote deep sand bucket and a refugium. It has been up and running for over 2 years and my epaulettes have been successfully breeding.
Domboski
New member
Cool! Pics would be awesome! Do you sell the offspring? I have been trying to get an eppy.
Marc, no need to get defensive. Your opinion is valued as is clekchau's. He is not trying to attack your recommendation but just adding additional ideas to the thread.
I am interested in a wet / dry but never set one up before. Is it as simple as bio balls in the water entrance and a return pump on the other side?
Right now I have two refugiums, One 40 gallon above tank refuge and one 20 gallon sump / refugium.
Puffer Queen
New member
I am not selling any at the moment.
It doesn't have to be anything fancy - salt buckets with the bottom cut out and lighting grate on the bottom. Fill the bucket with bioballs and have a spray bar on the top.
bignick
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8688386#post8688386 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Domboski
Here you go! I am not the best with the camera, sorry.
BIG GUY
Birthday Shark
Marble Shark. Hides a lot. Here he is in his cave.
Here he is after he ripped up a silverside (the reason why you see particles in the water).
BONUS
Domboski,
Do you keep all of these in your 120? Or are these sharks that you have kept over the years. I would love to keep more than one in my 210. Also do you have any problems with keeping the sharks and ray together?
thanks
Domboski
New member
I need to update my signature. The sharks right now are all in a custom made 150 gallon (total system is 210 gallons). I have no trouble keeping the sharks and ray together mainly because each animal has its preferred cave / home base (after careful aquascaping). I learned through my days rasing turtles and other animals that in a lot of cases, proper environment set up is the key to keeping an animal happy (not just the size of the habitat). What I mean by this is that saying a bamboo shark needs a minimum tank of 180 gallons is a good guideline but doesn't mean that a properly constructed 150 gallon couldn't house them for a few years without a problem.
Having said that, I spend a lot of time with constant maintenance of the tank to ensure the health of my animals (literally hours everyday). The Arabian shark pictured above came to me as a surprise so I needed to do the best I could to house it properly. It was in a 55 gallon for a couple of weeks until I got him into a 120 gallon. He was in the 120 for a couple of months before I moved him and the others into the 150 gallon they are in now. They are extremely happy and healthy as you see but I would have preferred to start with a much larger tank as the constant upgrading takes up a lot of time, energy and $$$$. I am working on the 400 gallon tank for them which I would have gone with the first time if I was expecting taking on a 2' shark (that someone bought and realized it was beyond their care experience) rather than the bamboo egg I was hatching and the marble shark.
You would be surprised how quickly a well fed and healthy shark can grow. I am pretty sure the Arabian Shark was about a 1' to 1.5' when I got him and literally grew about 6"-12" in less than a year. I haven't read books on growth rate for sharks but that seems to be a lot more growth than most people would expect. Even the marble and baby bamboo shark in a few months grew several inches.
About the sharks and rays, one thing to watch out for is the sting rays behavior during feeding. My ray will literally try to pull the fish out of the sharks mouth which has led to two occasions of a mini bite to the rays wings. Nothing major because it wasn't the shark puposely biting him but more the shark eating the fish and the ray getting in the way. He always heals quickly though.
Having said that, I spend a lot of time with constant maintenance of the tank to ensure the health of my animals (literally hours everyday). The Arabian shark pictured above came to me as a surprise so I needed to do the best I could to house it properly. It was in a 55 gallon for a couple of weeks until I got him into a 120 gallon. He was in the 120 for a couple of months before I moved him and the others into the 150 gallon they are in now. They are extremely happy and healthy as you see but I would have preferred to start with a much larger tank as the constant upgrading takes up a lot of time, energy and $$$$. I am working on the 400 gallon tank for them which I would have gone with the first time if I was expecting taking on a 2' shark (that someone bought and realized it was beyond their care experience) rather than the bamboo egg I was hatching and the marble shark.
You would be surprised how quickly a well fed and healthy shark can grow. I am pretty sure the Arabian Shark was about a 1' to 1.5' when I got him and literally grew about 6"-12" in less than a year. I haven't read books on growth rate for sharks but that seems to be a lot more growth than most people would expect. Even the marble and baby bamboo shark in a few months grew several inches.
About the sharks and rays, one thing to watch out for is the sting rays behavior during feeding. My ray will literally try to pull the fish out of the sharks mouth which has led to two occasions of a mini bite to the rays wings. Nothing major because it wasn't the shark puposely biting him but more the shark eating the fish and the ray getting in the way. He always heals quickly though.
bignick
New member
Thank you so much for the info! I agree with you 150% on your theory of designing a tank to fit a sharks lifestyle. Do you mind if i pm you about this or even email you as i have a lot of Qs and you seem to be the person that is living my dream. i promise i won't fill your mailbox. just a few Qs about what to do and whats recomended.
Again thanks a lot and sorry for hijacking!
Again thanks a lot and sorry for hijacking!
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