Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[GuySmilie]

Re: Re: Re: 1" or 1.5" drains for this method?

Re: Re: Re: 1" or 1.5" drains for this method?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12204275#post12204275 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pescadero
i just wanted to ask a question about the structural integrity of the overflow: i notice that your flexible drain pipes aren't supported, and that your unions/valves don't appear to be supported either. if that's the case, is the weight of the water + plumbing hanging from the overflow box? my concern is that this would place a lot of stress on the overflox box seams.
thanks.

No support required in this particular instance.
Total weight of the (full of water) overflow system is <40lbs, hardware and all. The rubber/vinyl hoses are so short, vertical, flexible, and lightweight, that they cause minimal lateral stress on those beefy Sch. 80 bulkheads; which themselves are mounted to 3/8" glass. The three vertical panes of glass are 1/4".

As for stress, you could stand on that overflow and the glass would break before those seams would fail.
Here's the original build specs, for anyone interested. Graphic is too big for RC's forum format.
(Sorry Bean, don't mean to hijack but I always get PMs for this) :worried:

 

[jnarowe]

great valve supply. very nice stuff.

 

[robertifly]

bump

 

[seawandrr]

Question...

I totally get how this works for overflow to sump... but I'm assuming that trying to feed a skimmer from the siphon line either wouldn't work well with this method, or at all, or at all?

Just bringing to clarity my tank build plans... funny how you get closer and start merging ideas you've collected together, how you have to check interference...

A few months ago:

1. Investigate and plan to use Herbie/Bean method
2. Overflow feed skimmer to reduce pump count and skim dirtiest water

Now Putting the two of them together results in the above question.

Figure 600gph through the skimmer, with a total of 1,800 GPH through the overflows (it's a 400g tank)

Could one run 2 siphon lines, the first throttled down to the skimmer GPH? the second siphon to the sump used to control the level/flow through the open standpipe?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, you could run two siphons

 

[jnarowe]

but can you create a siphon in a skimmer?

 

[BeanAnimal]

The siphon could be used to feed the skimmer, the only problem may be keeping the flow from the siphon consistent. The flow rate of the siphon will be dependent on the total head of the system. As the water level of the skimmer fluctuates, so will the volume of the siphon and of course vice-versa.

I have considered trying to feed the skimmer this way, but have yet to get around to actually doing so.

 

[jnarowe]

I am just curious because as you know I gravity feed my skimmer, but I am suspicious that the open style of a skimmer and air injection might not allow a true siphon.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The siphon will form as long as there is there is a difference in the level between the two bodies of water AND the feed side does not allow air to be introduced.

 

[jnarowe]

OK, so in my case with open feed I am just feed by gravity and not creating a syphon. That's a good thing in my system!

 

[GuySmilie]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12218655#post12218655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by seawandrr
.....Could one run 2 siphon lines, the first throttled down to the skimmer GPH? the second siphon to the sump used to control the level/flow through the open standpipe?

Don't see why not. Just add an additional and slightly oversized dedicated drain in your overflow just to feed the skimmer. Install a valve on it between the overflow box and skimmer to act as a governor or regulator (your skimmer input may already have this valve). In this way you would never allow the skimmer to 'get ahead' of the overflow's capacity.

 

[robertifly]

Plumb a new Tank

Plumb a new Tank

Bean, I got my new tank sat. I have a plan to let me use your 3 pipe silent siphon method which I am determined to try and use. Let see now, I have four holes drilled for 1" bh in the back, two on each side to use for closed loop and I'll drill two more close to the center mid level along with one for a 1.5" bh for the cl intake, I'm thinking of Ocean Motion. Then for the overflow skimmer box if I make it acrylic and in two halves one just a plate to attach to the back, the other half can make the box complete and be silicone to the back. That will allow me to drill the back for 4 1" bh and use the bh along with a little silicon to secure the inside skimmer box and the outside overflow box(acrylic also) to the tank while at the same time passing the water from skimmer to hang on the back box where the 3 siphon drain pipes will be. You'll remember one of my goals is to have as small of a inside box as possible, maybe 1.5" deep x 5" x 20". Ok, what's not good?

 

[Siffy]

Silicon does not adhere well to acrylic. If the tank is glass, have glass cut to size to make the box. If the tank is acrylic, use weld-on (#4 I believe) to cement the boxes to the tank.

 

[robertifly]

Thanks, I understand about the glass/acrylic silicone thing. The seal would be the rubber gaskets that come with the bh with an extra one between the outside overflow and the glass wall of tank. Just thulght of useing some silicone between the box and tank for adding some value of solid support, suction adhesion?

 

[Siffy]

I guess I misunderstood what you're planning to do. When you started talking about 2 halves I assumed you were planning an external overflow box. But after rereading it, it sounds like you're planning 2 internal overflow boxes. Which isn't necessary, but is that what you mean by "skimmer box"?

If you are planning to silicon acrylic to the outside a glass tank, that's asking for trouble. It's not that it doesn't seal well, it's that silicon does not adhere well enough to acrylic to support any weight. You're much better off buying $10 of pre-cut glass sheets.

 

[robertifly]

Yes, I was afraid that I would have trouble explaining so people can understand. Imagine two boxes, one very thin say 1.5" the other 5"x5" each 20 inches long each, each one drilled for four 1" bh, the tank back drilled for four 1" bh at corresponding locations and the bulkheads are used to hold the two onto the tank. The thin 1.5" box is only used inside to get the "skimming effect" otherwise the four bh could do the job of attaching the hob and exit the water to it. I'm sure the bh will handle the "seal and attach job" without any sealer and I should have never mentioned silicone. Do that help?

 

[Siffy]

That makes perfect sense. You're making an external overflow but plan to use bulkheads rather than a sealant to secure the boxes in place. I would just worry about 4 points for gasket failure. That and getting the holes perfectly aligned. Other than that, it's a great way to save space inside the tank.

 

[robertifly]

I'm glad you see what I'm trying to do, sometimes people use just a little sealant on the rubber gaskets or perhaps in the hole to lessen the chance for leaks by the bh, good or bad I dunno. The main reason for use of acrylic outside is better chance for water tight joints and less weight. If no one sees any other negatives with this idea I will proceed, Bean are you there? BTW. about the cl are six 1" outlets and one 1.5" inlet a common setup?

 

[BeanAnimal]

The idea should work, but as siffy mentioned, hole allignment is critical. It is a glass tank, there should be no problem using silicone to attach an external glass overflow box. It will also serve to greatly increase the strength of the back panel.

The CL sounds fine, but you may want to use (2) 1.5 intakes or a 2" single intake.

 

[MitchReef]

Man Bean.....I wish this thread had come along just a few months earlier....I just set up a system and got it pretty much to a "maintenance" status just Sunday....I didn't do much of anything the way a lot of people would as far as my system startup....but that's an entirely different issue....Here's my buidl thread....http://coralnetwork.freeforums.org/...nd-hand-mixed-reef-road-show-t82.html....come on over and join pour little forum if you will, My name is Mitch and I'm a mod over there....it's not a commercial site, no sponsors, no ads or banners, just friends, I don't think there is any restriction for posting this here....if there is, please let me know and I will gladly edit....

Anyway, I just got done with a modified Herbie....I have his two standpipes, set up as specified....I have the return going to a "T" above my fuge, which then goes to the sump and the fuge through a perforated wall and to twin 1" bulkheads to a direct overflow into my sump via a "T" pipe silencer....the Fuge is elevated above the sump for direct overflow plumbing, but I wonder if I would do better with side by side, directly bulkheaded from fuge to sump with the same height....that would certainly prevent the siphoning surges and pressure transcients I seem to be fighting....the sump and fuge play button, button, who's got the button with siphoning surges....I even drilled the fuge inlet pipe drop to stop the swapping crap...all that seemed to do was make bubbles and spray....and that's gotta go!!!