Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

Cutting a slit that close to the edge of the glass will be tricky and leave a delicate piece of glass above the slit. Remving the trim also poses a problem, as there is nothing to prevent the front of the tank from bowing.

A glass shop could do a very neat job of trimming down the back glass and leaving a fillet type transition between the vertical and horizontal edges fo the cut (to prevent stress). You still have the problem of NO support for the front glass. The Overflow box will stiffen the back glass and prevent it from bowing. It is conceibable that the back of the overflow box could be tied to the tanks cross brace. A lot of work for a first time overflow project!

I would simply opt for 4 holes in the back glass and a very narrow (say 1.5") internal overflow!

The external box would have the bulkheads in the bottom like a standard durso or stockman setup.

Bean

 

[robertifly]

I agree maybe the way I was thinking is "pie in the sky" but just think I don't run a canopy and would therefore need the kept high enough not to show display side. The opening could be cut through the glass and trim leaving the top of the trim intact..ok,ok I'm giving up on that and taking your 4 holes in back and narrow internal overflow idea, the 4 holes are just that holes in glass correct? The drains from the outside box then can be user choice of many stylessuch as Herbie, Stockman, Duro and such. Right now I'm using a Herbie style and man I love it, which ever I'm thinking out the bottom of the box on back to conserve space. What do you guys think? Thanks, Bean.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, you can then use any depth of external box and style of standpipe you wish.

 

[gsxunv04]

Bean animal, i am extremely impressed with your concept and idea you have used to create this "3 drain-pipe" style of overflow. i also like how you overflow gets the whole span across the top back. i will definately be using this method on my next tank. gotta question, are the down turned elbows(pipe 2 & 3 from left to right) and how much above the regular operating height id the LG tubing thats turned back into the tank(red line). also how much higher is the 1st failure pipe than the others? thanks for the help and you 3d CAD drawings are nice!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks

The design is just a evolution/adaption of several common overflow concepts that are used in the hobby and general industry.

I am not sure I understand you question about the down turned elbows. They are on 2 of the 3 standpipes (the siphon standpipe and the open channel standpipe).

The air intake tubing is secured about halfway between the top of the trim (the true flood point) and the normal operating level. So that puts it about 1/2" below the lip on the trim that the glass lids would rest on.

The Emergency overflow has an up turned elbow (In my case with a strainer). It is set so that it will accpet water at about 3/4" below the lip on the trim.

Hope that helps.

 

[MeuserReef]

Thanks for the write-up Bean. Im preparing to use this triple-pipe overflow design on my new 120 gallon tank and have a question.

What (if any) problems would your design encounter if you had used 1" pipe for all of the plumbing rather than the 1"/1.5" combination?

Im getting ready to purchase my ball valves and unions (too cheap for the "true unions ) and would like to get them in 1", rather than 1.5" if theres not going to be any issues with this. My return pump is going to be a MAG 12, but will have some of the flow split off to run through my DIY chiller's heat exchanger so Im guessing that I will only have about 500-750 gph through the overflows (im actually playing with the idea of having the heat exchanger plumbed inline with the siphon overflow tube to allow more flow through the sump without having another pump... and running my recirc skimmer off of the non-siphon tube...any thoughts on this?)


Thanks.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The smaller diameter pipe will mean a few things.

1) The overall siphon capacity will be slightly reduced due to increased friction in the smaller diameter pipe

2) The overall "failsafe" capcity will be sightly reduced due to increased friction in the smaller diameter pipe

3) The overall velocity of the water in the pipes will be increased for the same volume of flow. This may slightly increase the noise made by the water in the pipes.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY

4) The open channel standpipe will have a MUCH decreased capacity due to the lack of air space. As the water to air ratio in a standpipe increases, so does the noise and chance fo gurgling. The larger the diamter of the open channel standpipe, the quiter it will be.

You should be ok with 1" plumbing at the flow rate you propose. However, 1" unions (depending on brand) can be pretty darn restrictive.

You may want to consider leaving the open channel pipe 1.25" or 1.5" though.

 

[MeuserReef]

Thanks for the clarity Bean. I think that the extra capacity of the 1.5" pipe is worth the extra upfront $$$. The labor will be same regardless, so only a slight materials increase (in the grand scheme of things). It would be a disaster, and a waste of money, to go back and change later. This tank will be in my living room so silence will be golden. Doing things "right" the first time is at the top of my list on this build.

A "cheap reef" is an oxymoron anyway, right?!

What do you think of my plans to run my heat exchanger and skimmer off of the drain pipes?

 

[JCTewks]

Meuser...I just purchased all of the overflow plumbing for my 120...I had 2 of the 3 bulkheads already, and the total cost for all of the fittings PLUS the ebay drill bit was under $50! I did use only 1 ball valve (true union ($14 at lowes))...it is on the open channel (the only one that really needs it). I used all 1 1/4" pipe and just used unions on the other 2 pipes.

$50 is pretty darn good....considering I put $150 in all of the p;umbing for my 26g

 

[JCTewks]

Personally, I'm going to run my skimmer off of the full siphon standpipe...I think that the open channel would cause too much burping in the skimmer destroying the foam head.

The only Issue I see with running your chiller from the standpip is that there is the possibility of getting debris in the chiller shell from the unfiltered overflow water.

 

[MeuserReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12100308#post12100308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
Personally, I'm going to run my skimmer off of the full siphon standpipe...I think that the open channel would cause too much burping in the skimmer destroying the foam head.

The only Issue I see with running your chiller from the standpip is that there is the possibility of getting debris in the chiller shell from the unfiltered overflow water.

Good point regarding the debris entering the chiller barrel. I hadnt thought about that. Perhaps the barrel could be fitted with a removeable drain that would allow it to be cleaned.

I dont see why there would be "burping" in the skimmer if using the open tube. If I understand Beans design correctly, there should be a pretty consistant flow through the open pipe. If more flow is needed through the open pipe, the ball valve on the siphon pipe can be closed a bit, forcing more water into the open standpipe, which should keep the skimmer happy.

Perhaps not... Its just an idea at this point. Reducing pumps should ALWAYS be a goal IMO. If this design will work, 3 birds are killed with one stone

 

[JCTewks]

I think you and I are confusing terms.....

The pipe getting full flow, the "siphon standpipe", will have no valve on it (or at least doesn't need one), nor does it have an airline into the top of it. The "open channel standpipe" is the one with a valve and an airline on it....this is the one that will have air in it and handle the "extra" flow from the full siphon pipe. You will NOT want to run your skimmer from the one with air in the line. Feed your skimmer from the "full siphon" standpipe. As long as there is no backpressure, you could try feeding your chiller from the open channelpipe...I wouldn't think the air inthere would affect chiller performance.

Is your chiller a DIY tube in shell style? If so, you could always make the shell from clear acrylic so that you can see if it is getting clogged, then open it and clean it when needed.

IMO, even if you can't run your chiller from the overflow...it is ALWAYS better to feed your skimmer from the overflow....that's where the "dirtiest" water is concentrated.

 

[Siffy]

Running the drain through the chiller might not work well. Chillers add significant head to plumbing and require pretty specific flow ranges to preform optimally. I'd use the siphon drain to feed the skimmer if possible as well, and plumb the return through the chiller during months it will be needed.

As for being cheap going with Valve + Union vs True Union Ball Valve, you're really not saving much at all. Plus, you get the benefit as you would from using 2 unions and the TUBV valves are typically easier to operate. Also, check out bulkreefsuply.com for TUBVs. Their "heavy duty brand name" ones come with extra fittings (1 slip, 1 threaded) so the valve can be used again easily. Added value, imo.

As for cost (going by savko since they carry everything to compare)
1/2" 1" 1.5"
Union $2.26 5.16 9.05
Ball Valve $2.24 3.45 8.01
Total (1 union) $4.50 8.61 17.06
Total (2 union) $6.76 13.77 26.11
TUBV $9.38 13.88 24.08

 

[Siffy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12100738#post12100738 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
The pipe getting full flow, the "siphon standpipe", will have no valve on it (or at least doesn't need one), nor does it have an airline into the top of it. The "open channel standpipe" is the one with a valve and an airline on it....this is the one that will have air in it and handle the "extra" flow from the full siphon pipe. You will NOT want to run your skimmer from the one with air in the line. Feed your skimmer from the "full siphon" standpipe. As long as there is no backpressure, you could try feeding your chiller from the open channelpipe...I wouldn't think the air inthere would affect chiller performance.

You've got it backwards JC. The siphon standpipe has the valve so we can restrict flow through it to the point it can't quite handle 100%. Thus the siphon is never broken, but all the water isn't handled either, and that small remaining amount goes through the "open channel" with air. That's why it's called an "open" channel it's not closed off by a valve.

 

[MeuserReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12100862#post12100862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
You've got it backwards JC. The siphon standpipe has the valve so we can restrict flow through it to the point it can't quite handle 100%. Thus the siphon is never broken, but all the water isn't handled either, and that small remaining amount goes through the "open channel" with air. That's why it's called an "open" channel it's not closed off by a valve.

Correct Siffy. The only purpose of the "open" pipe is to handle the water that you have prevented from going through the siphon tube. Im pretty sure that the only reason Bean even has a ball valve on the open pipe is so that he could close the line and take the pipe apart at the union.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12100812#post12100812 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Siffy
Running the drain through the chiller might not work well. Chillers add significant head to plumbing and require pretty specific flow ranges to preform optimally. I'd use the siphon drain to feed the skimmer if possible as well, and plumb the return through the chiller during months it will be needed.

My chiller barrel is the DIY type made from PVC. There are 2 Titanium refrigerant lines that run through this pipe (long ways). Im currently pumping water through this using most of the flow from my MAG 12. The one thing that I hadnt thought about was that, when using a DIY Heat Exchanger coupled with a Freon Compressor, the water flow rate through the barrel must be fully controllable so as to allow you to control how much heat load (superheat more specifically) you are putting on the compressor. I would lose this feature if I had my HE fed from the drain line. It would still somewhat work, because the siphon line is controlled by a ball valve, but in the event that the siphon had too much flow, I would have to back it off and might put enough flow through the open pipe to make this SILENT system noisy

Now what I might do (as you suggested Siffy), is split my return line so that its feeding both the tank directly, and the heat exchanger. I could then come off the heat exchangers output and have that line return to the tank also. This way, Im still getting 100% of the flow from my return through the sump, and I have ultimate control as to what % of my return pumps flow goes through the HE (therefore allowing tight control of the superheat of the chiller system)
This might be my best option as it would leave the siphon tube to feed the skimmer and the open drain line could the feed a frefugium or dump into the sump as well.

Sorry for the Hijack Bean...

 

[MeuserReef]

Double post. Sorry

 

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11973691#post11973691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Then the only variable would be the skimmer water level and sump level, both of which can be eliminated with the use of a Hartford loop on the skimmers outflow.

Bean, do you have a link to a "Hartford loop"? Thanks.

Allen

 

[H20ENG]

Al,
A Hartford loop is like an external standpipe. I'm sure you recognize it, but maybe not its funny name, which comes from the old steam plumbing days. It is used to adjust the water level in a vessel. Usally, the standpipe is attached to the drain plumbing to divert the water where needed.

The top of the standpipe MUST be vented to prevent a siphon, or it will act the same as a Carlson Surge Device. A Durso, or any other vented standpipe is actually a form of a Hartford- you are drawing water from below the static waterline, yet the overflow point is AT th e waterline.

Here is a Mysid culture system I built years ago with a Hartford to adjust the level of the broodstock tank.

Here its being used for a skimmer outlet.

Hope this helps,
Chris

 

[H20ENG]

Al,
Good stuff in your gallery! Do you have threads for them?

 

[ReeferAl]

So that's a Hartford loop. I knew the concept but had never heard the name. Thanks Chris.

Which "stuff" are you referring to?

The most recent thread is here

That device worked as planned for about 2 weeks. The Ice Probe chiller then quit working- definitely an over priced POC. I have since picked up a thermoelectric "dorm fridge" that I've modded. I got it at a steep discount due to damage to the outer surface. Even at full price though it was only minimally higher than the Ice Probe, with more chilling capacity.

I'm also now using a "closed loop" air pump for stirring. It's too early to tell how well it'll work or how long it'll hold up though.

Allen