Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

I probably didn't explain myself very well. I meant if the box was deeper I could have set the open channel lower. I think the issue here is that I have a siphon that can handle way more flow than my pump can produce which is why I have to close down the standpipe. I cannot see any reason why not having any regular flow in the open channel is an issue. I do notice that upon startup that the open channel develops a full siphon before the normal full siphon kicks in. Takes a couple of minutes but it eventually starts up. Thanks for staying with me on this.
 
For the open channel, if you didn't use a tee, where would you relocate it to? Where would you install the vent tube? The rising water and thus blocking the vent tube is what turns it into an emergency full-siphon drain.
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I suppose you could drill the hole in one of the elbows instead or the short pipe connecting them.
 
I cannot see any reason why not having any regular flow in the open channel is an issue.
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I expect you have an auto top off system. If you had no flow and enough water evaporated the siphon would break and reform. That is the only reason I know of.
 
JTL said:
... I cannot see any reason why not having any regular flow in the open channel is an issue....
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The odds of you being exact are a million to one. If you have no water entering your open channel, then you have more water going out than you have entering. (it may only be one drop per three minutes, but never the less) this means, in one day, one month, or one year (depending on rate), you will run out of water and begin sucking air.

Failsafe means you need to have water trickling down the open channel. This covers any variation in pump due to evaporation. Little more it just flows down the open channel. little less and you are ok for a while.
 
the depth and size of overflow box along with the open channel being drilled .25" above siphon hole only play a factor in starting the siphon. It does not effect the system running.

Evaporation only plays a factor on pump output. If you have water trickling or clinging to the walls of the open channel, minor pump variations will not effect the system running.
 
It does not effect the system running.
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I would disagree. Lets assume evaporation .05 inches per hour. Water level exactly even with the open (no water going down it). After 5 hours the siphon will start to suck air (ok assume it has to be dead level). But imagine the ATO kicked in at two hours. It adds water to the sump and the head difference is less so the water in the Over flow goes up back up to the original level.
 
TheFishMan65 said:
I would disagree. Lets assume evaporation .05 inches per hour. Water level exactly even with the open (no water going down it). After 5 hours the siphon will start to suck air (ok assume it has to be dead level). But imagine the ATO kicked in at two hours. It adds water to the sump and the head difference is less so the water in the Over flow goes up back up to the original level.
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I'm gonna have to say I don't understand.

For the system to run properly, and be "Set and Forget"...there should be water flowing down the open channel. It is clearly stated on his web page.

Any variation in pump output, be it evaporation or whatever, is accounted for via the open channel flow.

If there is no open channel flow, then the system is no set and forget. You must watch the water level to ensure yourself that you are not going to begin sucking air.
 
I made mine all the same height which is probably why is takes a couple of minutes for regular siphon to kick in. It starts the open channel siphon first. I did move the airline tube higher up to delay the full siphon which helped.
 
If there is no open channel flow, then the system is no set and forget. You must watch the water level to ensure yourself that you are not going to begin sucking air.
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If that where the case then the Herbie design would not work and people have been using it for years.

Lets try it this way.

1) If the pump pumps more the water level in the over flow will rise -agree or disagree. It does not a matter if this is from a clean pump, more water in the sump, electrical changes.
2) If the pump pumps less water the level in the over flow will lower -agree or disagree. It does not matter if this ifrom evaporation, dirty pipes, or a spill.

Now if you can control these two level through regular maintenance. The if the lowest level is above the siphon break point and the highest level is below the open channel. The it will be silent and set and forget.
 
JTL, I am confused the intakes are the same height and no water goes down the open? Not the hole location, but the where the water enters the pipe.
 
I don't recall the water level in my OF box changing. The sump level goes down and my ATO kicks in. I put Bean's system in to eliminate the possibility of my tank overflowing, if too much water evaporates that is just noisy, but my ATO handles that unless it fails.
 
TheFishMan65 said:
JTL, I am confused the intakes are the same height and no water goes down the open? Not the hole location, but the where the water enters the pipe.
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They are exactly the same height with downturned street els. At startup water rises high enough to go down the open channel, then it goes to full siphon. Eventually the normal siphon starts up and the water level (at least where I have it set) drops below the intake to the sanitary T on the open channel and the airline tube sucks air and breaks that siphon, but since the bottom of the sanitary T on the regular siphon is an inch under water it is siphoning.
 
Ok, got it. I forgot about the airline tube affecting things. What is the distance between the siphon intake and the point where the water would start to go down the open. Sounds like more than an inch.
 
Well that depends on where I set my water level but it is between 1-2". Picture a 1-1/4 street el. After all of this conversation I have the water level set to "trickle" down the open channel. It still leaves me about an inch of water fall over the weir so all is good.
Thanks to all for the information.

Now I want to design a system with an in-tank weir and an external box on the other side of a wall.
 
1-2 inches of wiggle room is a lot. My system probably only changes 1/2 inch.

Now I want to design a system with an in-tank weir and an external box on the other side of a wall.
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Me too, but first I have to be able to afford the tank.
 
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