Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Bama5150]

The airflow to the open channel should be unrestricted so that it does not interact with the flow rate in the pipe.

How deep is the siphon standpipe submerged into the sump?
Can you describe how the system acts during startup and how long it takes to purge the air from the siphon?

Do bubbles continue to exit from the siphon standpipe during what should be "normal" operation?

the siphon is submerged about 1" - 1.5" into the water. open is about 3/4" submerged.

it takes about a minute i believe for the siphon to start and purge all the air, and once this happens there are no more bubbles.

I have even taken the cap off the open to watch the flow into it. it is at its quietest when there is no more than a trickle into it, but even then its not dead quiet.

 

[luv951]

Thanks, Jim.

I new I was forgetting one of the design specs. My last tank (a couple of years ago) had this setup, but for the life of me, I could not remember that the ends of the pipes need to be submerged so that the air can purge itself. In thinking of my concept, it seemed so perfectly sound. :crazy1::worried:

By ton of flow, I was only referring to the volume of water going over the overflow....for a 90 gallon tank, I am targeting 350-500 GPH. There will be Vortechs in the tank.

This will not work as intended. The operation of the siphon, depends on there being no air in the line. Joining the pipes will guarantee that there will be air in the line, and might as well not have the siphon, and just use a durso... Your idea of keeping everything angled down is sound. but unfortunately, you need three separate lines, 4 including the return. This is the main reason I don't care for "remote" sumps. The hassle of moving water back and forth, and the size of the pump needed.

Someone really needs to define "a ton of flow," chuckles, although it would not matter much. 10x the system volume is not by any means a "ton" of flow. Something of a gross exaggeration.

Jim

 

[Bama5150]

looks like SIKPUPY had the exact issue as me

1) I am thinking and maybe, just maybe 1 1/2 piping is too big for a 90 gallon tank. This is because no matter what I did, I could not get the sound of someone pouring water, in the open channel pipe, to go away........... for the time being....
Along comes Sunday morning, I was fresh, the day was early and I greeted the tank with surprising enthusiasm (I was so burnt the night before from messing with it for so long). I grabbed my soda (I am not much of a coffee drinker) and started to turn the ball valve knob. Surprisingly, it slipped right into place where I wanted it, with its usual momentary resistance cracking sound (another reason for the gate valve). Then, I noticed right away something was different, it got silent quickly. From fizzing, glucking and toilet flushing sounds to slow fizzing and then to silence, all in 1 minute! Then, all I heard was "hummmmmmmmmmmmmm", from the pump, that was all!? I almost choked on my coke in excitement it was so silent. In fact, there was not even a sound of a trickle of water! I was unwary of the fact that it was so silent, I thought it was a fluke, so, I checked out all water levels, looked things over and then stopped the pump. I let everything drain and restarted. It was.....dead silent! I restarted the pump 3 more times to make sure, and eureka I DID IT!!! . Well, Bean actually did it, I was just the laborer.

The last thing I noticed, is there is NO water coming from the open channel? This is why I am wondering if 1 1/2 is too big for a 90g. It was not dead silent until i had ALL the flow going into the siphon. I know the open channel is supposed to be extra drainage, but, no matter how small the flow of water in the open channel, even if it was a trickle, it sounded horrible! The ONLY way it was "dead" silent is if there was NO water in the open channel. Also, even a small amount of water produced tiny fizzy bubbles in the open channel. I would need to do some more experimenting with that hole bean was talking about to see if that stopped the bubbles, but, I know that at a medium flow, it does not. I tested it that much with a 1/8 drill bit.

 

[akindbro4u]

looks like SIKPUPY had the exact issue as me

I have been running this system for a year now, and I can say I have no noise coming from my open channel, and I run almost 10% of my return through it. The true unions I use to regulate, are just not accurate, so I use my open channel to maintain the water level in my overflow. I do get bubbles from my open channel, but it was nothing a filter sock didnt fix. I have sense added a bubble trap on that line, but that may be a little much for you right now. Stopping the noise is the first priority. Do you have pics of your setup? It would help us find the "fault".

Ron

 

[Bama5150]

Thanks akindbro4u,

Here is a picture of the back of the aquarium, i wanted to show the open channel since its the only one that makes any noise.
Currently I hear no water sounds, but this is because i have it dialed in so that zero water is going through the open channel. If I had even the smallest stream i will hear trickling inside the open pipe.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thestandlees/4845930389/" title="aquarium by Bama5150-RollTide, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4845930389_620c977f0e_b.jpg" width="533" height="800" alt="aquarium" /></a>

I have been running this system for a year now, and I can say I have no noise coming from my open channel, and I run almost 10% of my return through it. The true unions I use to regulate, are just not accurate, so I use my open channel to maintain the water level in my overflow. I do get bubbles from my open channel, but it was nothing a filter sock didnt fix. I have sense added a bubble trap on that line, but that may be a little much for you right now. Stopping the noise is the first priority. Do you have pics of your setup? It would help us find the "fault".

Ron

 

[akindbro4u]

Thanks akindbro4u,

Here is a picture of the back of the aquarium, i wanted to show the open channel since its the only one that makes any noise.
Currently I hear no water sounds, but this is because i have it dialed in so that zero water is going through the open channel. If I had even the smallest stream i will hear trickling inside the open pipe.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thestandlees/4845930389/" title="aquarium by Bama5150-RollTide, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4845930389_620c977f0e_b.jpg" width="533" height="800" alt="aquarium" /></a>

If it is working for you now don't change it. If you are having problems my solution would be to let water flow through the open channel. sometimes more is less. I found there is a balance of to little water in the open (noise), and too much(bubbles).

 

[macchicks]

I have not put this system to use yet but from your picture the drain lines are above the water line. Am I correct?

I think I have seen that issues happen when this is true and that the lines should be submerged.

Hopefully one of the experts who have been through this can answer.

Thanks akindbro4u,

Here is a picture of the back of the aquarium, i wanted to show the open channel since its the only one that makes any noise.
Currently I hear no water sounds, but this is because i have it dialed in so that zero water is going through the open channel. If I had even the smallest stream i will hear trickling inside the open pipe.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thestandlees/4845930389/" title="aquarium by Bama5150-RollTide, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4106/4845930389_620c977f0e_b.jpg" width="533" height="800" alt="aquarium" /></a>

 

[Bama5150]

it is a little hard to see in the picture, but all 3 are submerged.

 

[ukguy]

I set one of these system up the other day, and I'm having a few problems. Originally the first pipe would pull a siphon in less than 30s, and the 2nd open pipe would make a noise and never stop (cracking and pouring sound).

I messed with my hood the other night, and it may have bumped the pipes, as my 1 siphon now refuses to siphon, and the waterlevel on start up rises so that the tube on the open pipe gets submerged and starts a siphon. so its safe (thank the lord), but I noticed that 2nd and 3rd Pipe (inverted one) could not keep up with the flow of the iwaki until that tube on the 2nd was underwater.

I suspect I'll have to disemble my 1st siphon, and rebuild it, as I must have cracked a joint somewhere (I can't see anything though).

even before this little accident I still got the crackly and pouring sound. I wonder if its because I'm going from a 1 inch 90, into a 1.5 pipe, through a 1inch ball valve, and then back into a 1.5 inch down pipe. will that restriction make the cracking and pouring noise?

not the best photo, but you can see the top of the ballvalve and how it goes into the 1.5downpipe.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Are those going down through the floor? The cracking sound is likely cavitation in the pipe caused by the velocity in the narror section expanding back into the wide section. Your valve needs to be much lower in this setup to prevent the cavitation.

 

[ukguy]

Problem I have is a 2 year old who likes to turn handles.

Yes the pipe goes into the basement , total 13 feet drop. How far down should I put the valve then? I was also thinking of replacing all the 1inch sections and going straight from the 1 inch bulkhead to 1.5" including a 1.5" valve?

 

[BeanAnimal]

For a drop that long, the valve needs to be in the basement near the sump, there is just too much drop and as the water falls it picks up speed in the lower section, the friction in the upper section is greater than the molecular bonds in the water and it literally pulls vacuum pockets into the upper column of water as the lower column of water is tugged downward by gravity.

 

[ukguy]

Hmm, so I installed another valve in the basement, its not made much difference. Its like it can't clear the air on such a big pipe. If I unscrew the cap, and let air flow, and then close the cap again, it starts to siphon. The open tube siphons first as the water level rises so fast.

Should I change the siphon pipe to be completely 1inch in stead of 1.5. 13 feet of air, seems too hard to suck down for the capped tube.

all advice welcome

 

[krikor]

Hmm, so I installed another valve in the basement, its not made much difference. Its like it can't clear the air on such a big pipe. If I unscrew the cap, and let air flow, and then close the cap again, it starts to siphon. The open tube siphons first as the water level rises so fast.

Should I change the siphon pipe to be completely 1inch in stead of 1.5. 13 feet of air, seems too hard to suck down for the capped tube.

all advice welcome

a 13 ft drop is pretty long for a 1" bulkhead... i would say that maybe its not feeding the line fast enough and causing the cavatation somewhere in a bend or at a joint.

 

[RocketSurgeon]

overflow box

overflow box

75 gallon tank, 48" wide with .375" glass thickness. I have drilled my holes for 1.5" bulkheads. I want to order glass for the coast to coast overflow.
1. Is .25" glass thickness sufficient for the box?
2. What length do I cut the glass? I was thinking of 47.188". This will leave a .031" gap at both ends.

 

[uncleof6]

75 gallon tank, 48" wide with .375" glass thickness. I have drilled my holes for 1.5" bulkheads. I want to order glass for the coast to coast overflow.
1. Is .25" glass thickness sufficient for the box?
2. What length do I cut the glass? I was thinking of 47.188". This will leave a .031" gap at both ends.

For internal box 6mm (.25" nominal) will be fine, external would do 10mm. You want a 1.5mm (1/16") gap for silicone where panels meet.

Jim

 

[RocketSurgeon]

For internal box 6mm (.25" nominal) will be fine, external would do 10mm. You want a 1.5mm (1/16") gap for silicone where panels meet.

Jim

Thanks

 

[ukguy]

Hey beananimal, so I added the extra valve at the bottom in the basement, run it at 50% closed, and I still cant get the siphon to start...

it wont over flow, but it wont go silent until I help water escape from the pipe

Notice I added a tube to help the air out, which is submerged just under the water level, but that doesn't work very well either.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You have several things going on, so lets try and narrow down the problem.

First of all, there should only be a single valve controlling the flow in the siphon standpipe, and this valve needs to be near the bottom.

Adding the airline to the top of the siphon is going to break the functionality and reduce the flow in the siphon standpipe by allowing air to be drawn in, it will not allow air to escape.

Lets get those small things fixed and ensure that there are no possible air leaks in the siphon standpipe (there should be NO bubbles exiting the pipe once the siphon starts). The screw on caps needs to be fully sealed. I would use PTFE paste, not tape. Once that is done, let me know how the system behaves.

 

[ukguy]

beananimal,

I can get siphon, just not automatically, without removing and re-attaching the sealed cap.

The airline in the cap was added to see if it would release some of the air inside the tube by water pressure and is submerged into the tank

bubbles exit that submerged airline, I'm not sure if that means the theres a airleak, or that the water pressure is pushing air out of the airline.

I know the caps are sealed as when I undo them I hear the airseal break and it sucks air in the pipe. I can go back to a sealed cap thats not a problem.

The top valve is actually fully open, so it shouldn't matter.