Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[scott26]

I have been trying to find the best way to set up my sump with this sytem.

From what I have been told it is best to feed the fuge from the drain so that it can get the most nutriant rich water... I was planning on feeding my fuge from my return but after the skimmer has got ahold of the water and then goes to the return section then gets pumped into the fuge would it take out to much of the good water?

Is there a recomended way to feed the fuge with any of these drains?

Should I just keep the fuge feed off the return?

 

[poppafish29]

Ah ok that definitely helps.

Another quick question though, would a Mag 7 pump with 1" PVC drains work just as well?

A Mag 7 will work just fine. I just like Eheim's better.

 

[hamiltonguy]

A Mag 7 will work just fine. I just like Eheim's better.

So I ran a head loss calculator and found that at about 4 feet (height of tank + stand) the pump would push about ~400-420 gph. From what I've read, shouldn't I have a higher rate or am I just overthinking?

 

[chimmike]

So I ran a head loss calculator and found that at about 4 feet (height of tank + stand) the pump would push about ~400-420 gph. From what I've read, shouldn't I have a higher rate or am I just overthinking?

More turnover through the sump generally means less junk will settle in the sump but rather stay suspended in the tank.

If you can go for more flow, give it a shot. Remember, every elbow you use, as well as tees, decrease flow.

 

[hamiltonguy]

More turnover through the sump generally means less junk will settle in the sump but rather stay suspended in the tank.

If you can go for more flow, give it a shot. Remember, every elbow you use, as well as tees, decrease flow.

Yeah I included the elbows in it (3). I guess I'll go with a Mag 9.5 just to be safe.

Last question (I promise), would it make a big difference if I use 1" PVC for the drain instead of 1.5"?

 

[uncleof6]

Yeah I included the elbows in it (3). I guess I'll go with a Mag 9.5 just to be safe.

Last question (I promise), would it make a big difference if I use 1" PVC for the drain instead of 1.5"?

For that flow rate, no. The open channel will make a difference. 1" open channels do not work well, and it is good idea to bump it up to 1.25". This is bean's recommendation, my recommendation, and Richard Durso's recommendation (he invented the durso, which is what the open channel is.)

Jim

 

[hamiltonguy]

For that flow rate, no. The open channel will make a difference. 1" open channels do not work well, and it is good idea to bump it up to 1.25". This is bean's recommendation, my recommendation, and Richard Durso's recommendation (he invented the durso, which is what the open channel is.)

Jim

Awesome, thank you very much. This definitely helps alot.

 

[scott26]

Any ideas on the fuge.

 

[uncleof6]

I have been trying to find the best way to set up my sump with this sytem.

From what I have been told it is best to feed the fuge from the drain so that it can get the most nutriant rich water... I was planning on feeding my fuge from my return but after the skimmer has got ahold of the water and then goes to the return section then gets pumped into the fuge would it take out to much of the good water?

Is there a recomended way to feed the fuge with any of these drains?

Should I just keep the fuge feed off the return?

If you understand how a skimmer works, I am certain you do, and that more water passes right by the skimmer, than is processed by the skimmer-- regardless of flow rate, adding the 2 + 2 of this, = mythological.

The skimmer works at the molecular level, to remove dissolved organic compounds. Dissolved organic compounds are not nutrients-- They are dissolved organic compounds, proteins, lipids, etc. Nutrients are inorganic end products (nitrate) of bacterial activity, utilizing the dissolved organic compounds as their energy source. So the skimmer lowers the DOC (dissolved organic carbon) available to the bacteria, and only by ~ 35% at that, thus lowering the nitrate production. The "fuge" being a nutrient EXPORT method, has no need of the DOC, but rather the nitrate, which everyone knows is overly abundant regardless of the strongest skimming possible. So in essence, the skimmer is not removing anything that the "fuge" needs, and is in fact assisting in the "fuge" function-- that is to lower nitrates...... there is no biochemical reason to bypass the skimmer section, it is a myth: invented science, (justification) to avoid a slightly larger return pump (wattage!?) to accomodate feeding the fuge. Or, it could simply be due to a lack of understanding about exactly what a skimmer does, and how.

In terms of splitting the siphon line to feed two different compartments with different water levels, haven't done it, so won't predict the results. I will recommend power feeding "accessories" over gravity feed every time, and not mess with the drain adjustments. With bean's system, if you take a power fed fuge "offline" the system will auto adjust to accommodate the additional flow, and when turned back online, will auto adjust to the lower flow. Turning a valve on the drain line, will change the "default" setting of the drain system, the system will self adjust, but you would have to reset it. A crisis? Not really, the system is easy to adjust, but it is also "set it and forget it," not "set it, and reset it and reset it........" a play on words to a point.

Jim

 

[scott26]

Okay I am not as in depth on my research on the subject of skimmers and fuges as I should be... But that is kinda what I was thinking I am going to be running about 700 gph through the sump area after head loss and fuge loss so the water will be moving fast enough that the skimmer will not be able to pick up enough of the stuff anyway.

So what you are saying basicly is that the safest way to operate this bean system is to not mess with the drains and feed the fuge off of the return correct? At least that is what I am leaning towards.

I am a little lost in your description of "accessory" power and if I take the fuge "offline" since the fuge would be powered by the return pump when it went off there would be not auto adjusting since there would be now flow.

 

[hamiltonguy]

Sorry, one last thing popped up in my head. Is it ok to make the overflow box out of acrylic on a glass tank?

 

[uncleof6]

Okay I am not as in depth on my research on the subject of skimmers and fuges as I should be... But that is kinda what I was thinking I am going to be running about 700 gph through the sump area after head loss and fuge loss so the water will be moving fast enough that the skimmer will not be able to pick up enough of the stuff anyway.

So what you are saying basicly is that the safest way to operate this bean system is to not mess with the drains and feed the fuge off of the return correct? At least that is what I am leaning towards.

I am a little lost in your description of "accessory" power and if I take the fuge "offline" since the fuge would be powered by the return pump when it went off there would be not auto adjusting since there would be now flow.

How the skimmer works is not connected to the flow rate through the sump. The skimmer will remove what it is designed to remove, at the rate it is designed to remove it, regardless of the flow through the sump. Break that connection in your mind!

Yes, I am saying it is better not to mess with the drain lines.

Look at the graphic below: If you shut off the "fuge", why would there be no flow through the system? I am by no means trying to make you look bad, I am trying to help you learn By "power feed" I mean water is pumped to the "accessory" rather than gravity fed to the accessory. By closing the valve in the "fuge"branch, the "fuge" becomes offline. Flow continues to the rest of the system.

Jim

 

[scott26]

Your renderings always help! Thanks.

 

[Bama5150]

Ok I fnally put mine together. I started off giving 3 1" pipes a try. I was not able to dial it in. No matter how little flow i try to allow in the open pipe it still has noise. So I figured it must be the small open pipe, so put in a 1.5" pipe and I am still getting noise.

Is it possible that the union valve (from lowes) isnt precise enough to dial it in? It seems like I am making small adjustments?

Does it matter how much air is let into the open channel?

Is it becuse i have 2 45 deg elbows near the end that turns it toward the sump?

any suggestions are appreciated.

thanks

 

[luv951]

Bean or Uncle....

I have a thought and I am not sure if it would work, but bear with me here.

What if the three standpipes coming off the tank were to connect to one pipe, but a MUCH larger one, say 3 or 4 inch. That larger pipe in turn drains to the sump. Would you foresee any issues?

I imagine that since the larger pipe will have more than enough capacity for all the flow, it would not be an issue, but wanted to ask.

My reasoning is that I am going to head into my crawlspace with my drain lines and then out to a shed/fish room on the side of my house. One hole would be nice to deal with as opposed to three (plus the return). I don't plan on a ton of flow and creating a gravity drop by sloping the large pipe is also entirely possible.

You guys have any thoughts?

Thanks for you time

 

[uncleof6]

This will not work as intended. The operation of the siphon, depends on there being no air in the line. Joining the pipes will guarantee that there will be air in the line, and might as well not have the siphon, and just use a durso... Your idea of keeping everything angled down is sound. but unfortunately, you need three separate lines, 4 including the return. This is the main reason I don't care for "remote" sumps. The hassle of moving water back and forth, and the size of the pump needed.

Someone really needs to define "a ton of flow," chuckles, although it would not matter much. 10x the system volume is not by any means a "ton" of flow. Something of a gross exaggeration.

Jim

 

[teesquare]

Tons of flow....hmmm
I have a 250 gal. tank, with Hammerhead running closed loop, and a Barracuda for the sump circuit. I also have 2 Vortec MP 40's and a Tunze 6200 ... Somewhere around 10,000 theoretical gph (? big dis-claimer on how they figure that with Vortecs and Tunzes))
That is tons of flow...and it STILL is not too much!!! I could use more!

I am with ya Jim....how much is too much? Depends on method of deployment... But I have not seen "too much" yet.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ok I fnally put mine together. I started off giving 3 1" pipes a try. I was not able to dial it in. No matter how little flow i try to allow in the open pipe it still has noise. So I figured it must be the small open pipe, so put in a 1.5" pipe and I am still getting noise.

Is it possible that the union valve (from lowes) isnt precise enough to dial it in? It seems like I am making small adjustments?

Does it matter how much air is let into the open channel?

Is it becuse i have 2 45 deg elbows near the end that turns it toward the sump?

any suggestions are appreciated.

thanks

Without more details (photos?) it is going to be hard to help. The design is proven, so if you are having problems it is likely because you did not follow the design criteria at one or more stages. You have already indicated that you have used different a different pipe and fitting configuration...

Please provide more details about the setup and how it differes from the blueprint design. What size pump, etc.

 

[Bama5150]

The design is proven
Please provide more details about the setup and how it differs from the blueprint design. What size pump, etc.

I have no doubt that I have done something wrong. It's the reason why I asked the questions.

46g bowfront, Eheim 1260 return pump,

The 2 left pipes are 1".


I don't have a photo yet, however this is the last rendering i did. The difference is on the open channel i put in 1.5" pipe on the right (open) channel. I replaced the union valve with a simple union. also the left 2 have true union valves instead of the simple ball valves shown.

The holes on the left and right to the side of the overflow box are the return holes. I use an OM Squirt 2 way to feed these.

The only noise i hear is in the big 1.5" open pipe, no matter how small the flow into that pipe. The siphon is quiet.


Can TOO MUCH air flow into the open channel? I haven't put any thread sealant on the open channel threads.

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thestandlees/4706872855/" title="Aquarium - Redo by Bama5150-RollTide, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4021/4706872855_ab309598d0_b.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Aquarium - Redo" /></a>

 

[BeanAnimal]

The airflow to the open channel should be unrestricted so that it does not interact with the flow rate in the pipe.

How deep is the siphon standpipe submerged into the sump?
Can you describe how the system acts during startup and how long it takes to purge the air from the siphon?

Do bubbles continue to exit from the siphon standpipe during what should be "normal" operation?