Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Rx79394]

Anyone have any comments or suggestions on what I have posted above?

From the looks of it, it appears that you plan on having the DT feed into the overflow with a "shortened DT"? A little bit like an infinity edge pool?

If that is the case, that doesn't sound too great. Whilst, the water will get into the external overflow box, what about wandering fish and whatnot? That is a critical function of the weirs on the overflow boxes. Sure, you will get maximum surface skimming, but it would come at that cost.

 

[pdiehm]

Hey gang, my setup as is, is doing great and working great. I am about to upgrade my sump to one with 1" inlets. I am running 1.5". I could do a 1.5 to 1" reducer, would that impact performance or will I need to redo my drains to all 1"?

 

[Cam080]

From the looks of it, it appears that you plan on having the DT feed into the overflow with a "shortened DT"? A little bit like an infinity edge pool?

If that is the case, that doesn't sound too great. Whilst, the water will get into the external overflow box, what about wandering fish and whatnot? That is a critical function of the weirs on the overflow boxes. Sure, you will get maximum surface skimming, but it would come at that cost.

I do plan to put some kind of grill along the entire length to stop wandering fish from getting in the overflow, I just didn't show that. Mainly wanting advise on the overflow dimensions and the like

 

[Coach Sharp]

Hello everyone....finally got my 275 gallon half-cylinder tank in a few weeks back and have all the plumbing done...complete with the BeanAnimal design.

I can't seem to eliminate the bubbles coming out the 1.5" drain pipes in the sump. All the pipes are submerged 1" in the sump...and I even drilled small holes in the ends of the pipe just below the surface as many have suggested. Plenty of water coming out the pipes....but still lots of bubbles coming out of the full siphon pipe and the open channel pipe in the sump. Have fine-tuned the full siphon line to maintain the water level in the overflow box at about the middle of the down-turned elbows...but still lots of bubbles?

Any ideas? I do see some bubbles in the overflow box....but not sure where those are coming from? Should the 90 elbows be turned at an angle vs. straight down?

Thanks

 

[Reefus]

Hi everyone!

For the past few years I've been using a MAME overflow on my tank. It looks beautiful and works well but is a major pain to clean. For my next tank I wanted to go with some plumbing with less maintenance and breakable parts and the Bean Animal overflow looked perfect =)

Trouble is, I have no clue what I'm doing. I've started reading the thread but everything is in inches and gallons and a lot of pictures are missing, which makes it even more confusing. My LFS only uses Herbie style overflows and can't advise but is quite curious on how this one will do. I feel a bit bad for not having read the entire thread so if my questions were answered I would also appreciate a link.

Regarding the tank: I attached a Sketchup picture. It will be 130cm x 30cm x 25cm x 1 cm thick, rimless with an internal overflow on the short (30cm) side. I would like to push ~2000 liters per hour through the display with the return on the far side hidden by rock. Regarding the plumbing diameters I though I would stick to the original design with 25 mm (1''). Quite a few people use a 38mm to 25mm adapter for the tubing inside the aquarium, I assume to maximize weir area. I would also go with that.

My questions are:

• How deep (x) and wide does the overflow box need to be on the inside (usable space)?
• Does it work with a distance of 2.5 cm between the top of the overflow box and the top edge of the glass (z)?
• Regarding the three holes that need to be drilled. The 25mm bulkheads need 36mm diameter holes, would the spacing between the holes and between the hole and the edge of the glass plane work out? I read the thread that uncleof6 linked to (somewhere on page 2xx) with regard to hole spacing and according to that it should be fine.
• How far to the holes have to be from the top of the glass (q)?

I hope I didn't forget anything ; )
Cheers
Reefus

 

[Coach Sharp]

Update. I drilled the air holes in the ends of the drain pipes slightly "above" the water level in the sump...as I read that would be better than having the holes below the surface. The bubbles in the sump did NOT go away. Should the holes be above or below the water surface to release the air bubbles?

I then read where the Open Channel drain should be a 3/4" or so above the Full Siphon....so I cut 3/4" off the end of the Open Channel elbow fitting to raise the opening a bit relative to the opening in the Full Siphon elbow. The bubbles in the sump still did NOT go away.

So....can't figure out where the bubbles are coming from and how to eliminate them....so I can truly get a full siphon going? Any suggestions? No air or water leaks that I can see. The water dropping into the overflow box is causing a few bubbles.....but nothing like what's coming out of the ends of both the Full Siphon and Open Channel pipes in the sump? Just to experiment, I even close the Open Channel drain altogether and full throttled the Full Siphon Gate Valve....but bubbles continued to wage war into the sump?

Regardless, even though I obviously don't have a full siphon going, even at half throttle on the Full Siphon Gate Valve....the system is keeping up with the return pump, the water level in the OverFlow Box stays pretty constant at a little above midpoint of the elbows....and it's all relatively quiet. So does it really matter that I have bubbles coming through the drain pipes in the sump....especially since the sump is on the other side of the wall from the DT?

Thanks again....would appreciate any advice or suggestions any of you may have.

Make it a Blessed Day!

 

[Clowning_Around]

Update. I drilled the air holes in the ends of the drain pipes slightly "above" the water level in the sump...as I read that would be better than having the holes below the surface. The bubbles in the sump did NOT go away. Should the holes be above or below the water surface to release the air bubbles?

I then read where the Open Channel drain should be a 3/4" or so above the Full Siphon....so I cut 3/4" off the end of the Open Channel elbow fitting to raise the opening a bit relative to the opening in the Full Siphon elbow. The bubbles in the sump still did NOT go away.

So....can't figure out where the bubbles are coming from and how to eliminate them....so I can truly get a full siphon going? Any suggestions? No air or water leaks that I can see. The water dropping into the overflow box is causing a few bubbles.....but nothing like what's coming out of the ends of both the Full Siphon and Open Channel pipes in the sump? Just to experiment, I even close the Open Channel drain altogether and full throttled the Full Siphon Gate Valve....but bubbles continued to wage war into the sump?

Regardless, even though I obviously don't have a full siphon going, even at half throttle on the Full Siphon Gate Valve....the system is keeping up with the return pump, the water level in the OverFlow Box stays pretty constant at a little above midpoint of the elbows....and it's all relatively quiet. So does it really matter that I have bubbles coming through the drain pipes in the sump....especially since the sump is on the other side of the wall from the DT?

Thanks again....would appreciate any advice or suggestions any of you may have.

Make it a Blessed Day!

If you have bubble in the full siphone you have an air leak, check your air line. Are u using tephlon?

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[Coach Sharp]

Yes, I used Teflon tape on the threaded cap that is at the top of the tee. There is no air line on the full siphon, right? No water leaks....so can't imagine where the bubbles are coming from out the other end of the full siphon line? Could something in the open channel drain be causing bubbles in the full siphon drain line...even though they are not "connected" at all? Should the drilled holes at the end of the full siphon pipe in the sump be above or below the water surface level?

I also have bubbles coming out of the open channel line...but I guess that's expected as that does have the air line attached to the cap?

When I got up this morning, the water level in the overflow box was going up & down again....with lots of gurgling noise. So, I guess I do need to solve this problem.

Thanks again

 

[BlueRoofTang]

The siphon is only in the area ABOVE the valve. You will sometimes just have some air in the line below it because there is air in there. Drilling a hole above water level will just allow it to get more air in there, not let it out.

There really isn't much of a fix to the problem, but if your siphon valve is set properly, you just have to wait and the air will eventually work its way out, because you'll not be allowing any in it. IOW...if air is going in, it has to come out. If air is going out, and none is in, it means less inside. This is one reason people usually run the pipes down INTO their sump water, because it makes sure no air can get UP inside the siphon tube.

 

[Coach Sharp]

Thanks again guys! Could you explain what you mean by "the siphon is only in the area above the valve? You mean above the gate valve?

Given that I have the tee capped off tightly...and no water leaks.....just can't understand where the bubbles are coming from? Could it just be the pure force of the water flowing into the sump is causing the bubbles in the sump?

Thanks again for your suggestions. I think I'll go back to using the pipes with holes just BELOW the surface vs. above the surface!

 

[Clowning_Around]

Yes, I used Teflon tape on the threaded cap that is at the top of the tee. There is no air line on the full siphon, right? No water leaks....so can't imagine where the bubbles are coming from out the other end of the full siphon line? Could something in the open channel drain be causing bubbles in the full siphon drain line...even though they are not "connected" at all? Should the drilled holes at the end of the full siphon pipe in the sump be above or below the water surface level?

I also have bubbles coming out of the open channel line...but I guess that's expected as that does have the air line attached to the cap?

When I got up this morning, the water level in the overflow box was going up & down again....with lots of gurgling noise. So, I guess I do need to solve this problem.

Thanks again

yes air line on open channel. sorry for the confusion i typed that up wrong. If water is pulsing in you're box, it sounds like you haven't dialed it in yet which will let air in. Close your siphon gate valve till water is above gour siphons top and stabilizes

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[BeanAnimal]

It's YOUR opinion of determining what HIS basic principles are. I don't care if you call it a donkey. I really don't care. Please quit embarrassing yourself. :deadhorse1: Please, go argue with somebody else.

Actually, Jim's comments were not opinion and were factual based on my published overflow, it's operational principle and the design goals that encompass it.

I am glad that you are happy with your setup. That said, several folks have pointed out its pros and cons and how it differs from my published design. This thread is dedicated to helping folks implement the published design, not "herbie" setups (there is a thread somewhere for that). So please, go argue somewhere else.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The siphon is only in the area ABOVE the valve. You will sometimes just have some air in the line below it because there is air in there. Drilling a hole above water level will just allow it to get more air in there, not let it out.

umm... no. Not even close.

I am going to skip the entire physics lesson and cut to the chase. On startup there is air trapped (in the siphon standpipe) between the standpipe opening and submerged exit. This air is under pressure as the water in the overflow box rises and begins to fill and spillover the inside of the standpipe. Depending on flow rate, the air may be fully expelled or allowing the siphon to start or it may pose enough back pressure to prevent flow. This is why we only submerge the standpipes 1/2" or so and not 3". The deeper it is submerged the more pressure it will take to clear.

Drilling a hole just above the stable operating level will allow the air to be expelled (under pressure) as the sump level drops and exposes it during startup.

This is one reason people usually run the pipes down INTO their sump water, because it makes sure no air can get UP inside the siphon tube.

not really...

The pipes are submerged to prevent splashing and the associated noise, air entrainment (bubbles) and salt creep.

 

[BlueRoofTang]

Actually, Jim's comments were not opinion and were factual based on my published overflow, it's operational principle and the design goals that encompass it.

I am glad that you are happy with your setup. That said, several folks have pointed out its pros and cons and how it differs from my published design. This thread is dedicated to helping folks implement the published design, not "herbie" setups (there is a thread somewhere for that). So please, go argue somewhere else.

Maybe you forgot what YOUR original post in this thread was. I will attach a reminder.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Maybe you forgot what YOUR original post in this thread was. I will attach a reminder.

Here is what you attempted to attach from the first post of this thread.

The design criteria:

1) Dead Silent
2) Set and Forget
3) Limit Bubbles in Sump
4) Failsafe to Prevent Floods
5) Easy to Clean if Needed

Sir, It would appear that you are either struggling with context or willfully ignoring it in favor of being combative. This thread (again) is devoted to discussion of how and why I chose those design criteria and how I addressed them. In fact if you visit my site, you will see an expanded set of criteria and more explanation.

I have not forgotten what I said in that first post or repeatedly over the course of this thread. Nobody said that there are not other ways to meet those criteria. This has been pointed this out to you so, please stop, it is annoying and disruptive.

In your own words:

Please quit embarrassing yourself. :deadhorse1: Please, go argue with somebody else.

 

[Clowning_Around]

Please help me with a solution to my noise issue in my adaptation of this concept. So im fairly certain I know what the cause and solution is, Im just hoping it ain't so. I'm hoping for any bright ideas .

So here it goes, in my installation I utilized an external rear overflow box. I calculated my plumbing height and drilled holes on the basis of keeping my plumbing below the top of my DT, this pushed my boxes bottom a bit low. In hind sight I should have made the box wider and just had all the pipes enter from underneath but Im past that now (Or so I hope). Anyway in addition to my box being low my water enters by three holes which is creating a falling water effect, gross oversight on my part. It's about a 2in drop. Due to the amount of flow, about 600gph after headloss, the volume coming thru my holes while capable of much more is still a considerable amount to cause this noise. My first idea was to close my siphon valve more in an effort to raise the oveflow boxes internal waterlevel, I had little faith understanding the mechanics of the design, and as suspected it did not help whatso ever even after completely closing the valve. The open channel albiet creating its own noise, easily maintained the full capacity (failsafe no1). I didn't test closing the ball valve on my open channel to allow the emergency to kick in because I wouldn't be comfortable with that as a lomg term fix for obvious reasons. So my next big idea which I had high hopes for also had no impact whatsoever. That being to introduce a diagnol shelf so to speak within the box to allow the water to gently flow down to the waterlevel thereby mitigating the sound. I created a piece of acrylic to do so (pic below). Now I'm thinking its noise at the holes themselves as water rushes thru sorta like teeth on a weir in addition too the falling water. If that's the case, I'm afraid the only solution is to create a larger opening by either more holes or cutting horizontally between the the tangents of my holes at both the top and bottom to make one large slot, drilling between or oversizing the current holes would not leave much glass between.

Please help, I just got this sytem converted and put back together after a lot of research and planning but obviously not enough. I'm open to ideas and really don't want to go back to square one so to speak.

I have more pics in my build thread linked in my sig. Let me know if you need any more info or pics.

Thanks in advance!

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[Clowning_Around]

I forgot to mention I had thought also about using a bulkhead or uniseal to install a small pipe/ elbow on the holes. That is, to force the water to enter the box below the waterline. However, given my weir I dont have room for a uniseal or bulkhead g - flange conflict. My holes are right at my weirs bottom edge

By the way despite my issue, thankyou Bean so much for your efforts and sharing your knowledge. The piped portion of my system itself works as I had hoped after all the research.

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[Ted_C]

the waterfall noise is probably coming from the internal overflow along with the external overflow. your only choice is to raise the water level in the external box by whatever means you have available to you - which raises the water level in your internal box too. That's a cascading effect - if you close the siphon you create more noise in your open channel. So then you have to raise your open channel and re-adjust the siphon.

I highly suggest you re-think your design. That external box is only held on via silicone? While it works, it wouldn't give me great piece of mind that it would last forever. Is that external box acrylic attached to glass?

I would suggest an external box that's held onto the tank with bulkhead connections and double gaskets to prevent leakage.

 

[Clowning_Around]

the waterfall noise is probably coming from the internal overflow along with the external overflow. your only choice is to raise the water level in the external box by whatever means you have available to you - which raises the water level in your internal box too. That's a cascading effect - if you close the siphon you create more noise in your open channel. So then you have to raise your open channel and re-adjust the siphon.

I highly suggest you re-think your design. That external box is only held on via silicone? While it works, it wouldn't give me great piece of mind that it would last forever. Is that external box acrylic attached to glass?

I would suggest an external box that's held onto the tank with bulkhead connections and double gaskets to prevent leakage.

Thanks for taking your time to reply. I'm attaching a few additional pics of when I was building this setup to better help explain visually of what I have overflow wise. When I get an opportunity I'll follow up with another photo of the current weir internal water flow.

I dont think the noise is comming from my internal box. I can definitely tell its quiter on the one side of the tank furthest from my external box. If I lean my ear over the various areas around the back of my tank, it is loudest over my external box and above my DT rear panel holes.

Raising the level in my ext. overflow would not raise the level in my weirbox, It would enter my emergency pipe before it reached my weirs waterlevel. I would like to do this but running out of ideas aside from a major redo hence my post.

As for the rear box, yes it is attached via silicone only and is all glass. I have no reservations about it. Its as strong as, actually stronger than larger 10g tanks I have purchased. I do not want an externally attached bulkhead style box, and less not forget there would still be seams, just not at my DT wall. In the current config, they reinf each other, which I prefer.

My biggest suspicion is that it's moreso my opening size than the water falling itself.

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[Clowning_Around]

Here's a few more pics of the weir in action. I'm thinking based on the Volume being pulled down by gravity and observing the higher amounts on the ends trying to escape down quicker (not level water) that its wanting more opening in my DT wall... see how the wayer onside thr weir beyond is at a higher elevation still, cant drain quick enough?

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