Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Clowning_Around]

Please help me with a solution to my noise issue in my adaptation of this concept. So im fairly certain I know what the cause and solution is, Im just hoping it ain't so. I'm hoping for any bright ideas .

So here it goes, in my installation I utilized an external rear overflow box. I calculated my plumbing height and drilled holes on the basis of keeping my plumbing below the top of my DT, this pushed my boxes bottom a bit low. In hind sight I should have made the box wider and just had all the pipes enter from underneath but Im past that now (Or so I hope). Anyway in addition to my box being low my water enters by three holes which is creating a falling water effect, gross oversight on my part. It's about a 2in drop. Due to the amount of flow, about 600gph after headloss, the volume coming thru my holes while capable of much more is still a considerable amount to cause this noise. My first idea was to close my siphon valve more in an effort to raise the oveflow boxes internal waterlevel, I had little faith understanding the mechanics of the design, and as suspected it did not help whatso ever even after completely closing the valve. The open channel albiet creating its own noise, easily maintained the full capacity (failsafe no1). I didn't test closing the ball valve on my open channel to allow the emergency to kick in because I wouldn't be comfortable with that as a lomg term fix for obvious reasons. So my next big idea which I had high hopes for also had no impact whatsoever. That being to introduce a diagnol shelf so to speak within the box to allow the water to gently flow down to the waterlevel thereby mitigating the sound. I created a piece of acrylic to do so (pic below). Now I'm thinking its noise at the holes themselves as water rushes thru sorta like teeth on a weir in addition too the falling water. If that's the case, I'm afraid the only solution is to create a larger opening by either more holes or cutting horizontally between the the tangents of my holes at both the top and bottom to make one large slot, drilling between or oversizing the current holes would not leave much glass between.

Please help, I just got this sytem converted and put back together after a lot of research and planning but obviously not enough. I'm open to ideas and really don't want to go back to square one so to speak.

I have more pics in my build thread linked in my sig. Let me know if you need any more info or pics.

Thanks in advance!

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[Clowning_Around]

I forgot to mention I had thought also about using a bulkhead or uniseal to install a small pipe/ elbow on the holes. That is, to force the water to enter the box below the waterline. However, given my weir I dont have room for a uniseal or bulkhead g - flange conflict. My holes are right at my weirs bottom edge

By the way despite my issue, thankyou Bean so much for your efforts and sharing your knowledge. The piped portion of my system itself works as I had hoped after all the research.

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[Ted_C]

the waterfall noise is probably coming from the internal overflow along with the external overflow. your only choice is to raise the water level in the external box by whatever means you have available to you - which raises the water level in your internal box too. That's a cascading effect - if you close the siphon you create more noise in your open channel. So then you have to raise your open channel and re-adjust the siphon.

I highly suggest you re-think your design. That external box is only held on via silicone? While it works, it wouldn't give me great piece of mind that it would last forever. Is that external box acrylic attached to glass?

I would suggest an external box that's held onto the tank with bulkhead connections and double gaskets to prevent leakage.

 

[Clowning_Around]

the waterfall noise is probably coming from the internal overflow along with the external overflow. your only choice is to raise the water level in the external box by whatever means you have available to you - which raises the water level in your internal box too. That's a cascading effect - if you close the siphon you create more noise in your open channel. So then you have to raise your open channel and re-adjust the siphon.

I highly suggest you re-think your design. That external box is only held on via silicone? While it works, it wouldn't give me great piece of mind that it would last forever. Is that external box acrylic attached to glass?

I would suggest an external box that's held onto the tank with bulkhead connections and double gaskets to prevent leakage.

Thanks for taking your time to reply. I'm attaching a few additional pics of when I was building this setup to better help explain visually of what I have overflow wise. When I get an opportunity I'll follow up with another photo of the current weir internal water flow.

I dont think the noise is comming from my internal box. I can definitely tell its quiter on the one side of the tank furthest from my external box. If I lean my ear over the various areas around the back of my tank, it is loudest over my external box and above my DT rear panel holes.

Raising the level in my ext. overflow would not raise the level in my weirbox, It would enter my emergency pipe before it reached my weirs waterlevel. I would like to do this but running out of ideas aside from a major redo hence my post.

As for the rear box, yes it is attached via silicone only and is all glass. I have no reservations about it. Its as strong as, actually stronger than larger 10g tanks I have purchased. I do not want an externally attached bulkhead style box, and less not forget there would still be seams, just not at my DT wall. In the current config, they reinf each other, which I prefer.

My biggest suspicion is that it's moreso my opening size than the water falling itself.

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[Clowning_Around]

Here's a few more pics of the weir in action. I'm thinking based on the Volume being pulled down by gravity and observing the higher amounts on the ends trying to escape down quicker (not level water) that its wanting more opening in my DT wall... see how the wayer onside thr weir beyond is at a higher elevation still, cant drain quick enough?

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[BeanAnimal]

Left hole - emergency. Use an upturns elbow and vertical,pipe to get it to the desired height.

Middle hole - open channel. Set the height as needed with vertical pipe and 2 elbows to form a u tube.

Right hole - siphon. Down turned elbow. This should allow you to adjust the water level in the box.

Worst case you could upturn the siphon elbow and add a vertical pipe and the another u suction.

That or simply rebuild the box, now that you know where the problem is.

 

[Clowning_Around]

Left hole - emergency. Use an upturns elbow and vertical,pipe to get it to the desired height.

Middle hole - open channel. Set the height as needed with vertical pipe and 2 elbows to form a u tube.

Right hole - siphon. Down turned elbow. This should allow you to adjust the water level in the box.

Worst case you could upturn the siphon elbow and add a vertical pipe and the another u suction.

That or simply rebuild the box, now that you know where the problem is.

Thanks for the reply.

Ok so I'm trying to follow the references as to which is which, meaning orientation.

In my post #949, first picture the top are you calling that left or right? I suppose it doesn't matter much since it would be repurposing the lines. In the current config, the bottom most elbow in the photo is my full siphon (sits at about 3/8in gap between its inlet and bottom of box), the center sticking up with holes my emergency and the topmost downturn elbow my open channel ( sits at about 5/8 in gap between its inlet and bottom of box).

Back to your suggestion, I think I follow but I have a question. If I raise the open channel via a vertical + dbl elbow in a u fashion does that dictate the water level or will my lower siphon's down turn elbow still have some factor on it? Im guessing not and that it is the open channels top of u, correct?

Second thing, any thought regarding my three DT holes pictured? Meaning, do you think I need to do anything to them or is your thinking its all a matter of the overflow box water level?

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[BeanAnimal]

Most of your noise is likely due to the waterfall from the three holes. Raising the water in the overflow box will help. For the most part, the height of the open channel will dictate the water level.

 

[Clowning_Around]

! Update ....

I did a rather simple test this morning after having thought more on tbe mechanics. First I dialed my siphons gate valve fully open. Next I fully closed my open channels ball valve. As presumed after thinking about the dynamics at play the water in my overflow began to rise. I then dialed the gate on the siphon clised a little causing rhe wateer to rise even faster until emergency started to kick in. Then i slightly openend the open channels ball valve to lower the water insise the box again but only enough such that the level was at the bottom of my DT holes. I played with it for a few turns not getting it perfect but enough to let it run tbat way foe a few minutes ro observe and listen or shpuld I say lack there of - silence atlast. This confirmed my holes at the DT are fine as is, its all just a mater of water level in my overflowbox. Meaning, that if I raise the water level within then the problem should be resolved. Based on closing my open channel and allowing my emergency to serve as the open, temporarily confirmed that I dont need to change my siphon plumbing. I believe based on this, that raising my open channels topmost portion is the way to go/ dictates the water level....

So if that assumption is correct I can provide the elevated U as proposed but still keep my inlet near the bottom of the box to keep livestock from entering.

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[Ted_C]

why dont you just screen in your internal box? Avoid cerith snails and the below works like a charm.

 

[jphayes921]

What kind of screen and where did you get it?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

That's Gutter Guard from Menards. Frost King.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-E-O-6-in-x-20-ft-Plastic-Gutter-Guard-VX620/202518614

https://www.menards.com/main/buildi...-king-6-x-20-gutter-guard/p-1444444948585.htm

 

[paphater]

How critical is it to have the U bends? In my overflow box I can only fit a single 90 degree elbow on the full siphon and secondary drain.

 

[Clowning_Around]

How critical is it to have the U bends? In my overflow box I can only fit a single 90 degree elbow on the full siphon and secondary drain.

If the 90 is downfacing, like bulkhead on the side, no problem, if horz facing like bulkhead underneath, your probably going to such air not attain a full siphon and gave lots of noise. So it depends on your configuration.

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[Lsufan]

Clowning around, I have a setup very similar to yours. I find that the pass through holes need to be about half way submerged to be silent. The amount of flow will somewhat dictate this & I do have close to 1000 gph going through my pass through holes. I have all my holes drilled in the bottom of the box , so my open channel has a sanitary tee with a street 90 installed into the tee. The bottom of the inlet on the tee where the 90 slips into the tee is set just below halfway on the pass through bulkheads. That way only a small amount of water drains through the open channel & the water level in the box is halfway up on the pass through holes.

How bean said to have your drains setup with the open channel in the middle hole really does make the most sense. By doing it that way the holes in the side of the box only need to have a 90. The syphon would have a 90 facing down & the emergency facing up with a short piece of pvc in the 90 to set the height. So the open channel would be the only drain that would need to have a u tube.

 

[Clowning_Around]

Thanks all. When I find another window of time I will give it a work over but the mrs says I need to catch up on some other projects first. So for the interim, I just have to live with it until I can get to it. Unfortunately everything is glued, so this should be a fun little challenge...

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[Bracka345]

Hello all, i'm in the process of plumbing my tank with the synergy reef overflow. Is there a limit to the amount of 90's or 45's i should be using on the drain lines? Thanks!!!

 

[naimasreef]

incredible thread.

 

[erik2302]

dual siphon

dual siphon

Question: I'm trying to feed a waterfall scrubber off my drain lines, currently I have a standard bean animal on 1.5" pipe. I would like to lower the open channel and create a second siphon line also controlled by a gate valve feeding the ATS (it will have an overflow elbow so if the slot gets clogged, water will still flow at the rate set by the gate valve).

Essentially, will this system work with two gate valve controlled siphon lines and one emergency dry pipe? or should I convert the dry pipe to the open channel to accept fluctuations? Open to any advice, thanks.

 

[Lsufan]

Well, it wouldn't be a bean animal drain if u did this & there is to many variables to say if it will work or not. I think u would have issues trying to tune 2 seperate syphons in the same overflow box. If u do decide to give it a try I would definitely keep the emergency dry. If u run a trickle through it it has a chance to get clogged & the chances of a flood go up dramatically. Personally, I would feed it from my return pump. That way u still have a beananimal drain so u have all the redundancies that come along with it. U wouldn't have to be constantly messing with your valves eighther. I just think it will be hard to keep everything stable with two syphons in the same overflow, especially with no open channel. U will also have more control of the amount of flow feeding the scrubber if u feed it from the return or a small individual pump if your return pump isn't big enough.

If u are set on feeding it with a drain then I would keep the drains setup with a beananimal & feed it from the syphon. U won't have much control of the flow through the scrubber this way but u would still have the best drain setup as possible.