Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

[tmz]

Dogmatic : "asserted a priori without proof".

There are plenty of actual scientific studies offering proof of the response of this parasite to useful treatments and it's life cyle There is also a great deal of unneccesary carnage in the hobby which can be lessened significantly IMO and IME by a broader use a of effective preventative measures and treatments now available ; such as quarantine, leaving an infected tank fishless, tank transfer, hyposalinity ,copper treatments,formalin amd so on.
None of that closes the door to further knowledge. Some are looking rigorously at alternative treatment methods like chloroquine phosphate for example . A vaccine is also being pursued. A reef safe treatment may one day be available or an effective reef safe predator may be found but for now there are very adequate known effective protocols and treatment methods . Encouraging folks to do less in favor of unproven homiopathic remedies will add to the losses.

What degree of partial immunity are we talking about?

Measures of the partial immunity are presented in the Collini And Burgess studies and noted in the University of Florida study I cited earlier.

 

[Aquarist007]

I won't tolerate personal attacks on my integrity or motives and will always respond to them accordingly.

My words are being interpreted not with the intent I posted them. In no way were they written as a personal attack
I maybe should of used "well respected" instead of influential

Any ways I will refrain from discussing some emotionally loaded topics on here because I am obviously not good at it
I'm a pragmatist and not a philosopher so I'll refrain from that
. It is very disheartening to me to log on to the site and read that I've upset someone when that is not my intent

 

[Subsea]

Dogmatic : "asserted a priori without proof".

There are plenty of actual scientific studies offering proof of the response of this parasite to useful treatments and it's life cyle There is also a great deal of unneccesary carnage in the hobby which can be lessened significantly IMO and IME by a broader use a of effective preventative measures and treatments now available ; such as quarantine, leaving an infected tank fishless, tank transfer, hyposalinity ,copper treatments,formalin amd so on.
None of that closes the door to further knowledge. Some are looking rigorously at alternative treatment methods like chloroquine phosphate for example . A vaccine is also being pursued. A reef safe treatment may one day be available or an effective reef safe predator may be found but for now there are very adequate known effective protocols and treatment methods . Encouraging folks to do less in favor of unproven homiopathic remedies will add to the losses.

What degree of partial immunity are we talking about?

Measures of the partial immunity are presented in the Collini And Burgess studies and noted in the University of Florida study I cited earlier.

Tom,
I was incorrect in my use of dogmatic. My meaning was refusal to consider that some of the proof could be in question. I read both of the references. The second paragraph "under Immunity" of the Florida study states,

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

Can prevent and may act allow for the wiggle room that I refered to. These are conditional words which should introduce other possibilities of explanation.

We should all agree that information, while substantial, is incomplete on the ich parasite. I seek to learn from all sources.
Patrick

 

[tmz]

My words are being interpreted not with the intent I posted them. In no way were they written as a personal attack
I maybe should of used "well respected" instead of influential

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm not upset; just want to post without any entitlements or restrictions due to perceptions of respect , influence or personality analyses. My posts speak for themselves for better or worse, which is up to the folks who choose to read them to decide. Let's deal with the facts and insights we can gather and move on.

 

[Aquarist007]

My words are being interpreted not with the intent I posted them. In no way were they written as a personal attack
I maybe should of used "well respected" instead of influential

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm not upset; just want to post without any entitlements or restrictions due to perceptions of respect , influence or personality analyses. My posts speak for themselves for better or worse, which is up to the folks who choose to read them to decide. Let's deal with the facts and insights we can gather and move on.

I'm all for that...and for fact... I have learned more about bacteria and carbon dosing from you then anyone else on this site

 

[Subsea]

In the situations in which Paul, Randy and I discribed for our personnel tanks, I have little doubt that the fish immune system cleared up the ich symptoms. I have little doubt that stress events compromise fish immune systems. I do question the length of time that the parasite can remain dormate. Using the carrier analogy introduces one explanation for the dormacy. Considering other life stage possibilities, like the cyst, makes one question the approved technique of a fallow tank for 12 weeks. There is little doubt to me, that removing fish from a mature reef system and putting them thru differrent QT procedures introduce a level of streess that is indeed more harmful to these fish. IMO, this is where experience should make a judgement call. When using reduced salinity as an ich cure on an estabolished reef tank with biological filtration, it took years to build back up the biological filtration. I do fixate on the bacteria at the bottom of the food chain,as well as micro fauna and fana which is sensitive to these in tank reef treatments.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Patrick

 

[Paul B]

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

I remember when Burgess came up with that, but that was 22 years ago. Those results were under laboratory conditions which doesn't mean much in the real world.
I believe, like him that fish do become immune from ich as my tank would not exist if it were not true. I also think that keeping fish immune through excellent health is a viable way to eliminate fish loses or even fish infection.
Quarantine is an option but my problem with quarantine is that the fish will always be susceptible to infection because they are never exposed to it. We as humans don't put ourselves in a bubble and hope any infectious agents get through, we inoculate ourselves so we become immune. The people who live in places where malaria or dysentery is common rarely get infected if they are eating well and are healthy otherwise. I myself have been to many places in the world such as Viet Nam, Cambodia and Mexico and the only ones who were sick in the hospitals were Americans. I wonder why that is?
I will say that any Noob just starting a tank should quarantine as their tank will not be very healthy as new tanks never are. Also new hobbyists would not have the skills to keep their fish in spawning condition to acquire immunity.
If I started a new tank tomorrow I also would have to quarantine. I think a vaccine is in the works and the fact that fish can become immune makes a vaccine probable and possibly easy to manufacture. The problem is that there is very little money for ornamental fish research and no drug companies will get involved.

 

[Paul B]

There is little doubt to me, that removing fish from a mature reef system and putting them thru differrent QT procedures introduce a level of streess that is indeed more harmful to these fish.

I would not be surprised if more fish died in quarantine than from ich.

 

[spamreefnew]

I ran skimmerless for about 3 years an ATS was my only filtration,no carbon,and almost no water changes. Pros wear that the soft corals grew like crazy and micro fauna was everywhere and lower electric bill and less noise. Cons for me that my lps stopped growing and sps started to fade away. I could also see a slight green tint to the water when placed in a white bucket. I got a good deal on a skimmer so now I run both ATS and skimmer. All you can do is try it,certain corals and systems react differently to diferent filtration methods.

 

[Aquarist007]

I would not be surprised if more fish died in quarantine than from ich.

Both you and Patrick use the term " mature or established" . Will you guys please define what you mean by that and more importantly if you feel skimming can alter that maturity

 

[Paul B]

Established is not about time, it is about self reliance. IMO a mature or established tank is one where very little testing is required as the owner knows the parameters and he knows they will not change by adding or eliminating a creature. It is a tank where corals grow randomly on their own where polyps sprout up with no help from us. Where under every stone is noticeable life, just like in the sea. Where fish almost never die unless it is from old age, (which is well over 10 years for almost all fish) where all paired fish are spawning (fish that will spawn in a tank, no whale sharks or manta rays)
Tiny tube worms cover many dark areas and you can see amphipods scurrying about if you look at the tank at night with a flashlight.
No tweeking is necessary, water changes will not noticeably alter the health of anything. Hair algae and cyano grow very little and do not overtake anything.
The power can go out for a few days and no deaths or crashes will occur.
To have a tank like this does not happen overnight and may take ten or 15 years. That is my idea of an established tank, not 6 weeks because your $5.00 test kit reads zero ammonia.

 

[Subsea]

Scott,

I will respond to the question about skimming and bacteria. Paul is better equipped to talk about maturity in reef tanks. He is older than dirt.

My focus is on diversity. There is little doubt that skimming removes free swimming bacteria, including phytoplankton and zooplankton. It also removes trace minerals like iodine and iron as well as calcium, magnesium and phosphate. All of these can be reintroduced in one way or another. Nothing happens in a vacuum, it is A Question of Balance as to what degree the diverse bacteria populations are skewed and how does this effect the health of the system. That depends on the system in question. I observe nature and I learn as I go. Having diverse populations of worms and filter feeders are bioindicators of a healthy system. There are other bioindicators that indicate system health. Corals consume bacteria and zooplankton as do most filter feeders including NPS. Observation of these bioindicators are my best assurance of diverse bacteria populations.
Patrick

 

[Subsea]

If you look at one of the utube vidioes that Timfish posted of a skimmerless tank with a Green Slimmer ( SPS), two frags grew from thumb nail size to larger than basketball size in 30 months. I believe that diversity in bacteria populations was responsible for the accelerated growth rates in a captive reef tank. Can this same diversity be accomplished while skimming. Of course it can, but it must be added accordingly. I embrace Feldman's statement that more studies are required to understand the implications of these skewed bacteria populations.
Patrick

PS. Skimming or skimmerless, bacteria populations and diversity will be reduced in a captive reef. The diversity must be added.

 

[Paul B]

I think any bacteria removed by skimming is ridiculous and not worth mentioning, I am only mentioning it because I just fed my pipefish and I am waiting for thm to finish the baby brine shrimp as they are slow. Bacteria multiply faster than Angelina Jolie's kids. The ounce or so of effluent that may come out of a skimmer is miniscule compared to what's left in the tank. And bacteria swim about as good as Paris Hilton's chowawa.
They float and they are not even that good at that. Any bacteria removee will replenish itself in no time as if there is room for bacteria, they will fill it.
It's the same with pods. My skimmer is home to thousands of pods and brittle stars, They think it is a Jacuzzi. I have had a large skimmer with ozone on my tank continuously for 40 years. You would think it would have depleted those creatures by now.
I am sure my spawning mandarins and 4 pipefish eat more pods in an hour than my skimmer skims in a week. :beachbum:

 

[Aquarist007]

Thank you both . Very differing options but very similar in the importance of bacteria in the tank. Also you both replintish your micro organisms from time to time. Paul you collect pods etc n a pink bathing suit and Patrick you collect Rock from an established reef..maybe in the nude..I don't know and it would be too much information to find out!
The problem I and others face is how to take care of the microorganisms we have in our tanks without the advantages you have.
So far I have learned to cut out the uv and do less gals water changes which I do already( I change 1 gal a day which takes less than a min)
I have learned that a skimmer possible do harm so I have made sure it is strategically placed away from the refugium etc??
What I can't seem to find or recognize is how to recharge or rediversify the micro organisms in my tank being a landlubber lol

 

[tmz]

I do not think more fish die in quarantine than from ich . People who don't quarantine often say that though. Why would the fish die unless the qt tank was a poor one in terms of water quality ,filtration etc. or if an initial infestation by crytocaron or some other pathogen killed them?If so, then the main tank might be just as poor and if it was a pathogen at least it never got to the tank.
.Running a quarantine tank is realtively easy even tank transfer is a lot easier than many think. It takes some patience and effort but less than coping with ich in a tank long term, and offers a good period for acclimation of new fish,IME.
I understand that in some situations gentle caprute of fish is nearly impossible. In a mature reef tank with ich ,ripping down aquascape ,relocating and snapping off corals and stirring up old substrate chasing fish around with a net can be harmful to everything in the tank for example. I can't imagine the damage I would do if I chose to take down 7 sps dominant integrated tanks in my system. The point is those situations and choices will be less common if qt and preventative treatments are used from the beginning or when tank a tank is realtively new and less complicated making take down if necessary and gentle capture are easier,IMO.

As for stress, I think it's pretty stressful for a fish when parasites are gnawing away at their gills and other tissues even in small numbers.Alleviating that condition is worthwhile.

 

[Subsea]

Thank you both . Very differing options but very similar in the importance of bacteria in the tank. Also you both replintish your micro organisms from time to time. Paul you collect pods etc n a pink bathing suit and Patrick you collect Rock from an established reef..maybe in the nude..I don't know and it would be too much information to find out!
The problem I and others face is how to take care of the microorganisms we have in our tanks without the advantages you have.
So far I have learned to cut out the uv and do less gals water changes which I do already( I change 1 gal a day which takes less than a min)
I have learned that a skimmer possible do harm so I have made sure it is strategically placed away from the refugium etc??
What I can't seem to find or recognize is how to recharge or rediversify the micro organisms in my tank being a landlubber lol

Scotty,

Not sure where the nude live rock collecting comes from. I reserve that for the Jacuzi and the rum and coke.

Review post #242 for some specifics on bringing in biodiversity of bacteria. I am 200 miles from the coast and I bring in mud and diver collected, uncured live rock from the GOM. I do not collect it and it is expensive but I will coin a phrase that I like, "Quality is not expensive, it is priceless". It is possible that an ancient ocean formation comprising the Edwards Plateau limestone formations that supply me with groundwater do have bacteria. When it was analyzed by EPA, they told me not to drink it because of the bacteria. When I questioned them on species, they could not answer. Ward labaratories showed low concentrations of iron bacteria. I am not sure what iron bacteria are. Nitrates, phosphates and iron are below the detection limits of Ward Lab and I suspect that bacteria have consumed these nutrients and are self limited in populations. The alkalinity of this ground water approaches limewater and it is high in calcium, magnesium, potassium and sulfur. These are all nutrients for coral and macroalgae growth. It was the main reason for me enlarging my macro growout as a commercial venture. I would not have to pay for expensive nutrient addittion since the nutrients come in with the groundwater.
Happy trails,
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

Scotty,

Not sure where the nude live rock collecting comes from. I reserve that for the Jacuzi and the rum and coke.

Review post #242 for some specifics on bringing in biodiversity of bacteria. I am 200 miles from the coast and I bring in mud and diver collected, uncured live rock from the GOM. I do not collect it and it is expensive but I will coin a phrase that I like, "Quality is not expensive, it is priceless". It is possible that an ancient ocean formation comprising the Edwards Plateau limestone formations that supply me with groundwater do have bacteria. When it was analyzed by EPA, they told me not to drink it because of the bacteria. When I questioned them on species, they could not answer. Ward labaratories showed low concentrations of iron bacteria. I am not sure what iron bacteria are. Nitrates, phosphates and iron are below the detection limits of Ward Lab and I suspect that bacteria have consumed these nutrients and are self limited in populations. The alkalinity of this ground water approaches limewater and it is high in calcium, magnesium, potassium and sulfur. These are all nutrients for coral and macroalgae growth. It was the main reason for me enlarging my macro growout as a commercial venture. I would not have to pay for expensive nutrient addittion since the nutrients come in with the groundwater.
Happy trails,
Patrick

I'm surrounded by fresh water lakes and streams . Are you saying that would replenish bacteria in my system. I thought fresh water bacteria and organisms could not survive sea water?

 

[Imperator_]

I've been skimmer less for two years. My tank has gone through a bit of a roller coster in those two years, as time went on and I learned more about the hobby I made many changes, but never added a skimmer. The first year I never kept track of parameters except for ammonia and nitrates. I just kind of went by the looks of my corals. The last year or so I've started to pay more attention to my parameters and with the addition of an apex I was able to notice a lot of consistency in my temperature and ph. I don't find anything to be out of whack in my tank for the last year or so, but yet my corals just never grow. What is affecting the growth of my corals if everything seems great? My pH is 8 -8.2 my temp runs 79-82, Cal 520, Dkh 13 ... The only thing I can think of that can change in my system is adding a skimmer... Is it perhaps my water is too dirty for corals to grow?

 

[Subsea]

I'm surrounded by fresh water lakes and streams . Are you saying that would replenish bacteria in my system. I thought fresh water bacteria and organisms could not survive sea water?

I said that you should get your biodiversity from reputable sources which include live mud/live sand and diver collected live rock. I specified live rock from the ocean because many use the term live rock to mean dry rock that is cured with some color and some bacteria. I like uncured live rock because it maximizes biodiversity of micro fauna and fana.
The musings about a shallow ancient ocean generating the limestone aquifers in which I get my water supply was an explanation as to why I feel comfortable with it going directly into my reef tanks. It would not be a source of bacteria biodiversity.
Patrick