Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

[Subsea]

I've been skimmer less for two years. My tank has gone through a bit of a roller coster in those two years, as time went on and I learned more about the hobby I made many changes, but never added a skimmer. The first year I never kept track of parameters except for ammonia and nitrates. I just kind of went by the looks of my corals. The last year or so I've started to pay more attention to my parameters and with the addition of an apex I was able to notice a lot of consistency in my temperature and ph. I don't find anything to be out of whack in my tank for the last year or so, but yet my corals just never grow. What is affecting the growth of my corals if everything seems great? My pH is 8 -8.2 my temp runs 79-82, Cal 520, Dkh 13 ... The only thing I can think of that can change in my system is adding a skimmer... Is it perhaps my water is too dirty for corals to grow?

Welcome to Reef Central, I noticed this is your first post on the site. Your question may be better served on the Reef Discussion Forum or New to the Hobby Forum. In either case, you may get conflicting advice and you will have to wade through that. There are mentors on New to the Hobby forum that can point you to differrent operting systems. Some corals like high nutrient systems and some don't. As a general rule, it is best to house corals with similar needs. There basic needs would include light, proper water parameters and food. Food for corals comes in many forms and gets complex quickly. "Everything seems great" does not show a detailed explanation for the conditions in your tank. A more detailed explanation of your tank system is required to analyze your need. Equipment does not necessarily solve problems. If you read any of the post on this thread you will find experienced reef keepers with diverse thoughts on reefkeeping. Look at some of the build threads and find a method that is compatible for your budget and time.
Patrick

 

[tmz]

I've been skimmer less for two years. My tank has gone through a bit of a roller coster in those two years, as time went on and I learned more about the hobby I made many changes, but never added a skimmer. The first year I never kept track of parameters except for ammonia and nitrates. I just kind of went by the looks of my corals. The last year or so I've started to pay more attention to my parameters and with the addition of an apex I was able to notice a lot of consistency in my temperature and ph. I don't find anything to be out of whack in my tank for the last year or so, but yet my corals just never grow. What is affecting the growth of my corals if everything seems great? My pH is 8 -8.2 my temp runs 79-82, Cal 520, Dkh 13 ... The only thing I can think of that can change in my system is adding a skimmer... Is it perhaps my water is too dirty for corals to grow?

What corals are you keeping? What are your NO3 and PO4 levels?Salinity? Do the corals look ok despite the perception of slow to no growth? Lighting? Is the water discolored /yellowing? Do you use GAC? What kinds of fish are in there?

 

[AcroporAddict]

My pH is 8 -8.2 my temp runs 79-82, Cal 520, Dkh 13 ... The only thing I can think of that can change in my system is adding a skimmer... Is it perhaps my water is too dirty for corals to grow?

One thing comes to mind immediately. Your dKH is very high. Calcium levels are high as well, but I would really be worried and take some corrective action with your KH first, outside of whether to use a skimmer or not.

 

[tmz]

a Green Slimmer ( SPS), two frags grew from thumb nail size to larger than basketball size in 30 months. I believe that diversity in bacteria populations was responsible for the accelerated growth rates in a captive reef tank.


Green Slimers ( acropora youngei) are very fast growers and very hardy as acropora go.. I would not consider that to be accelerated growth for that coral based on my experience The one in the background top right is growing out of the water after about a year of growth from a 3inch frag:

 

[tmz]

BTW this tank is on a heavily skimmed system with no external bacteria supplementation; just indigenous naturally occurring bacteria with basic soluble organic carbon dosing(vodka and vinegar). No live sand ,mud or new live rock in years either.

The colors are pleasing to me though not as bright as Paul's pink shorts.

There are also 6 pair of amphiprion and a half dozen pair of hippocampus erectus in the system ; they breed regularly.

 

[Subsea]

BTW this tank is on a heavily skimmed system with no external bacteria supplementation; just indigenous naturally occurring bacteria with basic soluble organic carbon dosing(vodka and vinegar). No live sand ,mud or new live rock in years either.

The colors are pleasing to me though not as bright as Paul's pink shorts.

There are also 6 pair of amphiprion and a half dozen pair of hippocampus erectus in the system ; they breed regularly.

Tom,
Breeding sea horses in a low nutrient system, very impressive. How long has the system been set up and what do you feed them to get into breeding shape.
As I lean toward NPS and filter feeders, I never entertained SPS.
The colors are gorgeous in your tank.
Kudoes to you,
Patrick

 

[Imperator_]

One thing comes to mind immediately. Your dKH is very high. Calcium levels are high as well, but I would really be worried and take some corrective action with your KH first, outside of whether to use a skimmer or not.

I never heard Dkh 13 or calcium 520 being "too high" , Dkh doesn't become lethal until above 22. And like I said my fish look great and my corals look great, my parameters have been at this level for about 12 months consistently and I haven't had any fatalities, my corals live fine and have grown a little. My hammers have grown a few heads... I'm just not getting crazy growth like others get and I was wondering if adding a skimmer would help. This question is not about Dkh or calcium. My phosphates are .05, so my refugium seems to be doing an ok job, but not a "great job". On the other hand I have heard people say that LPS like "dirtier" water.

 

[Aquarist007]

a Green Slimmer ( SPS), two frags grew from thumb nail size to larger than basketball size in 30 months. I believe that diversity in bacteria populations was responsible for the accelerated growth rates in a captive reef tank.


Green Slimers ( acropora youngei) are very fast growers and very hardy as acropora go.. I would not consider that to be accelerated growth for that coral based on my experience The one in the background top right is growing out of the water after about a year of growth from a 3inch frag:

Fantastic tank Tom.. Tks for sharing
What fish do you have in there?

 

[AcroporAddict]

I never heard Dkh 13 or calcium 520 being "too high" , Dkh doesn't become lethal until above 22. And like I said my fish look great and my corals look great, my parameters have been at this level for about 12 months consistently and I haven't had any fatalities, my corals live fine and have grown a little. My hammers have grown a few heads... I'm just not getting crazy growth like others get and I was wondering if adding a skimmer would help. This question is not about Dkh or calcium. My phosphates are .05, so my refugium seems to be doing an ok job, but not a "great job". On the other hand I have heard people say that LPS like "dirtier" water.

Here is an article by Randy on typical reef aquarium water parameters. Normal ocean KH is about 7. Typical reef tank dKH is 7-11, with most folks trying to be in the middle of that somewhere. You are at 13, higher than normal.

Ocean calcium levels are about 420, with typical reef levels being 380-450. You are at 520, higher than normal.

Your question may be about skimmers, but your high dKH could be a contributing factor as to why your corals have grown only "a little," instead of a lot. I would be less concerned regarding the calcium level than the KH level, however. Using a skimmer might help. Keeping your KH and calcium levels in the correct range may help also.

If you have never heard that your levels of dKH or calcium are high then you haven't done enough research. These parameters are well established and easily accessible in any reef publication on the topic.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

 

[AcroporAddict]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[Imperator_]

What corals are you keeping? What are your NO3 and PO4 levels?Salinity? Do the corals look ok despite the perception of slow to no growth? Lighting? Is the water discolored /yellowing? Do you use GAC? What kinds of fish are in there?

I have mostly hammers and Xenia. I have heard that Xenia is a good indicator of things being bad, and my Xenia spreads like a weed so something must be going well in my tank I guess.(I keep giving the dam thing away):wave:. But that is the only coral that seems to thrive. The other ones live fine and never perish the growth is simply very slow. My NO3 is undetectable and PO4 is .05 so my refugium seems to be doing an ok job. My salinity is 1.026, I use IO salt mix. I run 3 AI Sol led fixtures plus 2 48" 24 led 3watt each 12 white/12blue. The latter fixtures are mainly for ambience since I have tested the par in my tank with the AI sol to be more than sufficient to grow SPS on the sand bed. Obviously I don't run the lights at full intensity all day long, my hammers would be fried by now. As far as the water being dis colored I never noticed, but what would yellowing of the water indicate? I don't use carbon, I have heard of that being a possible cause of MHLLE. I have three damsels, a blue hippo, a yellow tang, an Imperator angel, and three Clown fish. In the satellite tank I have a baby blue hippo, an a Stars and Stripes puffer. All fish have been living together for about 12 months. The blue hippo was the first addition two years ago. And my last addition was the baby blue hippo to the satellite tank. I plan on adding a custom 8foot long tank to my system and the tangs will eventually live in there! My total system volume right now is about 150g altogether.

 

[Imperator_]

Here is an article by Randy on typical Reef aquarium water parameters. Normal ocean KH is about 7. Typical reef tank dKH is 7-11, with most folks trying to be in the middle of that somewhere. You are at 13, higher than normal.

Ocean calcium levels are about 420, with typical reef levels being 380-450. You are at 520, higher than normal.

Your question may be about skimmers, but your high dKH could be a contributing factor as to why your corals have grown only "a little," instead of a lot. I would be less concerned regarding the calcium level than the KH level, however. Using a skimmer might help. Keeping your KH and calcium levels in the correct range may help also.

If you have never heard that your levels of dKH or calcium are high then you haven't done enough research. These parameters are well established and easily accessible in any reef publication on the topic.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

Hi, I appreciate your advise, I have read that article many times. I am aware that my Dkh and calcium parameter are higher than normal, but it doesn't concern me. Calcium is not lethal at those levels and it doesn't hinder anything Dkh hasn't be proven to be lethal till about level 23. At this point the only thing that would cause problems would be precipitation but my magnesium got Tha under control. My Dkh and calcium gets depleted pretty quickly every week. I know many folks who keep the calcium and Dkh high and they have amazing tanks. We cannot compare the ocean to a reef tank. The ocean is just a point of reference. It has been proven many times that home reef aquaria differs greatly from the open ocean in many ways. I dose lime water in order to keep my ph above 8.0 since my house seems to have higher than normal levels of CO2, and with that the added alkalinity. I could also add vinager to my lime water to change that but I prefer not to. I've hear of people with amazing tanks with Dkh 18 and nothing bad happened. Like I said that doesn't worry me. I'm more interested in finding out what kind of growth other folks have gotten running skimmer less, that's the reason why I commented on this tread. After all it is a tread about running skimmer less and I have been doing so successfully for two years. :dance:

 

[Imperator_]

Here is an article by Randy on typical Reef aquarium water parameters. Normal ocean KH is about 7. Typical reef tank dKH is 7-11, with most folks trying to be in the middle of that somewhere. You are at 13, higher than normal.

Ocean calcium levels are about 420, with typical reef levels being 380-450. You are at 520, higher than normal.

Your question may be about skimmers, but your high dKH could be a contributing factor as to why your corals have grown only "a little," instead of a lot. I would be less concerned regarding the calcium level than the KH level, however. Using a skimmer might help. Keeping your KH and calcium levels in the correct range may help also.

If you have never heard that your levels of dKH or calcium are high then you haven't done enough research. These parameters are well established and easily accessible in any reef publication on the topic.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

I really appreciate your advice, nevertheless my Dkh and Cal levels do not worry me. I am aware that those parameters are above the normal levels. I have done a lot of research on Dkh and Calcium and I have not found any research that proves that higher levels of calcium and Dkh will hinder anything. I know many folks who have amazing tanks with Dkh levels of 18. I dose limewater in a daily basis in order to keep my ph above 8 since my basement seems to have "abnormal" levels of CO2 and with the addition of lime water comes the added alkalinity and Cal. At this point the only concern would be precipitation, but my magnesium got that taken care of. I'm more interested in finding out if any folks on here have experienced great growth running skimmerless and how they achieved that. After all, this is a tread about running skimmerless and I have been doing so for the last two years.

 

[tmz]

OK, The PO4 at 0.05ppm is ok imo.

My xenia and capnella(kenya tree) grow like that in my skimmerless tanks but not much in the main system which is heavily skimmed. They seem to need more organic material or dissolved organic carbon as do a few other species like , nemezophylia and some others. Some other corals are slowed by excess organics. Hammers( euphyllia anchora ) might be ok but mine do better with skimming and GAC in play.

Discoloration would indicate "gelbstoff",discoloring organics which don't break down well but are easily exported by GAC or skimming. They can mess with the lighting. If you have them you probably have an overall high level of total organic carbon. Absent skimming or GAC you have no real export for organic carbon which can be harmful to some corals if it's building up.
A well rinsed low dust carbon won't cause any HHLE in my experience. I've used rox 8 it for years .
I don't know much about leds since I haven't tried them but doubt that's a problem if you are getting enough PAR or too much light concentration which can casue photo inhibition ,corals close a lot.
I don't see any coral predators in your fish list. Though, the clowns could bother the hammer if they try to use it for a host. The puffer can mess with corals sometimes. Paracanthurs hepatus ,Hippo, is mostly carnivorous as an adult. Mine does mouth lps like Wellsophylia ,cynarina but not euphyllia .

I don't think 13 dkh will kill anything but wouldn't recommend it , a level between 7 and 11 is good My tanks run at 9.5 or so and have hundreds of sps which lay out a lot of calcium carbonate . You don't need anywhere near that much with lps and softies.At 13 dkh particulary with high calcium and pH a precipitation event is more likely.

If it were my tank and I wanted better response from the euphyllia and less from the xenia , I'd give skimming a try;GAC too.

 

[Imperator_]

OK, The PO4 at 0.05ppm is ok imo.

My xenia and capnella(kenya tree) grow like that in my skimmerless tanks but not much in the main system which is heavily skimmed. They seem to need more organic material or dissolved organic carbon as do a few other species like , nemezophylia and some others. Some other corals are slowed by excess organics. Hammers( euphyllia anchora ) might be ok but mine do better with skimming and GAC in play.

Discoloration would indicate "gelbstoff",discoloring organics which don't break down well but are easily exported by GAC or skimming. They can mess with the lighting. If you have them you probably have an overall high level of total organic carbon. Absent skimming or GAC you have no real export for organic carbon which can be harmful to some corals if it's building up.
A well rinsed low dust carbon won't cause any HHLE in my experience. I've used rox 8 it for years .
I don't know much about leds since I haven't tried them but doubt that's a problem if you are getting enough PAR or too much light concentration which can casue photo inhibition ,corals close a lot.
I don't see any coral predators in your fish list. Though, the clowns could bother the hammer if they try to use it for a host. The puffer can mess with corals sometimes. Paracanthurs hepatus ,Hippo, is mostly carnivorous as an adult. Mine does mouth lps like Wellsophylia ,cynarina but not euphyllia .

I don't think 13 dkh will kill anything but wouldn't recommend it , a level between 7 and 11 is good My tanks run at 9.5 or so and have hundreds of sps which lay out a lot of calcium carbonate . You don't need anywhere near that much with lps and softies.At 13 dkh particulary with high calcium and pH a precipitation event is more likely.

If it were my tank and I wanted better response from the euphyllia and less from the xenia , I'd give skimming a try;GAC too.

Hello, thank you for your response. I have a little discoloration in the water so I may have to find an alternate way to export organics. I originally chose to go skimmerless because I wanted to find a more natural approach to filtration, which is the reason why I built the refugium, although it seems to be doing a good job at exporting PO4 it doesn't eliminate the need for a skimmer apparently. Carbon seriously scares me. Although I've only been in the hobby for 2 years, my father had reef tanks as long as I can remember and he experienced many cases of HHLE and it was always attributed to activated carbon. Somehow every time he took away the carbon the fish would recover and then when added the fish would start getting erosion again. I know nobody knows with certainty that activated carbon causes HHLE, but having experienced it personally I rather not give it a try. So a skimmer it is. As far as the lights I only run full intensity for a couple of hours, the corals have full extension all day and don't seem to close up during the photoperiod. I'm going to try to lower my Dkh and calcium a little, but that's going to be a very gradual change, given my ph problem and my necessity for lime water. I already have an airator pump bringing outside air in but that barely helps to raise the ph slightly. The puffer is in a satellite tank that has only Xenia and he doesn't touch it. I haven't seen the tangs bothering the corals at all and the mated clowns host a big colony of Xenia. So it's clear that my homework will be to lower my Dkh and Cal to more normal levels and add a skimmer. Goodbye to my skimmerless system. :wavehand:

 

[tmz]

I didn't note a pH problem in my eariler read. . What is the pH day/night? How much calcium hydroxide/kalk are you dosing? How are you dosing it?Are you dosing other alkalinity supplements? I'd expect pH at least in the low 8 range with 13 dkh unless CO2 was really high.

Another thought: If you are growing large amounts of algae, an iron deficiency is possible. I'd save that one for later.

 

[Subsea]

Hlle

Hlle

Hello, thank you for your response. I have a little discoloration in the water so I may have to find an alternate way to export organics. I originally chose to go skimmerless because I wanted to find a more natural approach to filtration, which is the reason why I built the refugium, although it seems to be doing a good job at exporting PO4 it doesn't eliminate the need for a skimmer apparently. Carbon seriously scares me. Although I've only been in the hobby for 2 years, my father had reef tanks as long as I can remember and he experienced many cases of HHLE and it was always attributed to activated carbon. Somehow every time he took away the carbon the fish would recover and then when added the fish would start getting erosion again. I know nobody knows with certainty that activated carbon causes HHLE, but having experienced it personally I rather not give it a try. So a skimmer it is. As far as the lights I only run full intensity for a couple of hours, the corals have full extension all day and don't seem to close up during the photoperiod. I'm going to try to lower my Dkh and calcium a little, but that's going to be a very gradual change, given my ph problem and my necessity for lime water. I already have an airator pump bringing outside air in but that barely helps to raise the ph slightly. The puffer is in a satellite tank that has only Xenia and he doesn't touch it. I haven't seen the tangs bothering the corals at all and the mated clowns host a big colony of Xenia. So it's clear that my homework will be to lower my Dkh and Cal to more normal levels and add a skimmer. Goodbye to my skimmerless system. :wavehand:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2437950

This Stephen Pro article addresses proposed causes and cures for HLLE. He discusses all the proposed causes and provides links for studies that site them. Activated carbon is very far down on this list. The general consenses is that it is a sympton of diet defincieincies compounded by stress. Foods high in highly unsaturated fatty acids, a diet high in algae and the use of Vitamine A and Vitamine C have produced reversal of the symptons. There are many compounds produced in our enclosed ecosystem that will not be removed by skimming. Dilluttion by water changes is one method to lesson their impact. A routine of using small amounts of activated carbon that are replaced periodically is a proven method for reducing these compounds in our captive tanks.
Happy reefing,
Patrick

PS; I would think that the use of your refugium supplying pods and macro algae would address all of the tangs dietary needs.

 

[Paul B]

It would be easier to make a list of things that do not cause HLLE. No one knows what causes it although everyone has an opinion. One thing is for sure, it comes from captivity as wild fish don't get it.

 

[tmz]

Tom,
Breeding sea horses in a low nutrient system, very impressive. How long has the system been set up and what do you feed them to get into breeding shape.
As I lean toward NPS and filter feeders, I never entertained SPS.
The colors are gorgeous in your tank.
Kudoes to you,
Patrick

Thanks,

The system is about 11years old ,time flies. It started with a 90 gallon and I've built it around that. No new tank add ons in about 6 years. No serious coral issues in over 5.5.

PO4 runs 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm per hanah 713,.NO3 around 0.2ppm per Salifert test.

The adult seahorse tank is a 75 gallon housing 12 animals, it is plumbed into the main system. It is the only drain of seven in the system that is fitted with a filter sock. Seahorse take a lot of food and pas most of it out as waste. There are 7 tanks total integrated in the 650 gallon system which houses sps, lps, leathers, anemones, zoanthidae some nps( dendrophylia, and sponges). Goniopora do surprisingly well too. The fry grow out tanks and new hatch nursuries are on separate system, need to control hydroids with fenbendazole there and that is deadly for a reef tank. New fry get atremia nauplii hatched daily for the first 5 weeks or so before weaning to mysis.

As for feeding, I use a lot of food about three ounces of frozen per day to feed the 50 or so fish. I broadcast feed the mix of roughly 60% mysis, 30% brine and 10% bloodworm with a little cyclopeeze, cyclops or nutrimar ova,twice per day. The seahorse get this mix only once per day in the pm ;they get PE mysis in the am. In addition ,the tanks receive some spirulina flake, Prime Reef flake ,nori and a little krill 3xs per week.

 

[tmz]

Fantastic tank Tom.. Tks for sharing
What fish do you have in there?

Thanks,

That's about one foot of the top section of the 11 feet of display tanks, there are also 3 frag and gwo uout ttanks and a seahorse tnk on the system.

Aside from the seahorses and clownfish, there are surgeon fish( tangs and a rabbit fish) a few angels, various wrasses, several dragonets and mandarins , cardinals, some anthias, a few damsels , a couple of butterflies and I'm sure I left a few out .