Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

[Aquarist007]

That is true. My tank is as old school as it can get so it must be extreamly inferior. :hmm4:
I use a reverse UG filter, can't get any more old school than that. Unless you add my use of Clorox to puify NSW or my adding mud from the sea. I am surprised my tank didn't crash this morning just from it's old schoollyness. :crazy1:



A man with unlimited enthusiasm can acomplish almost anything

Paul to add sometimes the enthusiasm needs to be channeled in a certain direction to reap the rewards. I personally thank you for all the channeling you have done for my enthusiasm

I've never understood the use of Clorox bleach.. Kills life doesn't it?

 

[Addiction]

I'm jumping back into this hobby after a nine year break from reefkeeping. I've been keeping freshwater tanks for past nine years. The #1 tried-and-true method of success in the freshwater aquarium world is frequent water changes. I intend to apply that method to my new reefkeeping journey and avoid as many of these "other" methods to clean the aquarium water. I can't think of any arguement against removing dirty water and replacing with clean. Why make a simply hobby more complex? Water changes are simple and effective.

I have no plans to use a skimmer or sump on my 75G reef tank. Perhaps someday I will again, but not right now. I just don't see the benefit when I planned to do frequent water changes with or without these items.

I'll admit that I will be using lots of live rock and RO/DI water. I'll also admit that I'm used to doing weekly 50% water changes on my freshwater tanks.

And lastly, this has been a great thead.

 

[Aquarist007]

I'm jumping back into this hobby after a nine year break from reefkeeping. I've been keeping freshwater tanks for past nine years. The #1 tried-and-true method of success in the freshwater aquarium world is frequent water changes. I intend to apply that method to my new reefkeeping journey and avoid as many of these "other" methods to clean the aquarium water. I can't think of any arguement against removing dirty water and replacing with clean. Why make a simply hobby more complex? Water changes are simple and effective.

I have no plans to use a skimmer or sump on my 75G reef tank. Perhaps someday I will again, but not right now. I just don't see the benefit when I planned to do frequent water changes with or without these items.

I'll admit that I will be using lots of live rock and RO/DI water. I'll also admit that I'm used to doing weekly 50% water changes on my freshwater tanks.

And lastly, this has been a great thead.

Have a look at this thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1993813

 

[Subsea]

Addiction,
Because I am an engineer, I will qualify your coarse of action with the cost to do what you said. While I don't schedule water change, if I remember correctly, 50G of salt mix cost between $15-$20. If we go with the least cost, that is a cost of $0.30 per gallon to raise fresh water to full strength ocean. When I bought it over 20 years ago, RO/DI water cost about $0.20 per gallon. At a minimum your water change regime will cost $0.50 a gallon. With a 75G tank and a decent sized refugium we can guesstimate 100G system capacity. This would require 600G water changeout per year at a cost of $300. While the EPA says "Dilution is the Solution to Pollution", it is a haphazard method to address insufficient biological filtration or bad maintenance protocoal. Read the thread that The Captain sent you to. I highly suggest that you purchase Reef Aquarium Volumn 3, "Science, Art & Technology" by Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung. With over 150 pages on filtration, you will not be disappointed with this source of knowledge.
Patrick

 

[Aquarist007]

Patrick, is this the one
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/the-reef-aquarium-volume-three/9781883693145-item.html

 

[Subsea]

Patrick, is this the one
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/the-reef-aquarium-volume-three/9781883693145-item.html

That is it. The price has jumped over 50%. I purchased it in May 2007 for
$56.67 from Amazon.
Patrick

 

[billsreef]

TOC.....I know what it consists of but
Is it good or bad in our system

Organic carbons in SW are a quite complex subject. I'm not sure anyone knows what all they are and all the various pathways they go through for production and subsequent fates...lots of ongoing research on those subjects.

As for our aquariums, IMO there is both good and bad. Some is useful food, some is problematic. As to which is which, I think the best we can do is work on general removal and add the things we know work.

I've never understood the use of Clorox bleach.. Kills life doesn't it?

That's the idea. It's for sterilizing the collected NSW before use in your tank

 

[Imperator_]

That is true. My tank is as old school as it can get so it must be extreamly inferior. :hmm4:
I use a reverse UG filter, can't get any more old school than that. Unless you add my use of Clorox to puify NSW or my adding mud from the sea. I am surprised my tank didn't crash this morning just from it's old schoollyness. :crazy1:

I love old school because to me that means the aquarist has figured out how to let nature do almost all of the work for free with no dosers, controllers, reactors quarantine tanks, hospital tanks, medications, or test kits. Those things all have their purpose but eventually you advance past all that and just end up with a bullet proof, almost no maintenance, very healthy, (that means everything is spawning and everything is also only dying of old age) pretty nice looking tank that never has to be on a disease forum. :wave:
But Hey, What do I know. :wave:

A man with unlimited enthusiasm can acomplish almost anything

Hi Paul! A self sustaining tank is my ultimate goal! Do run skimmerless aswell?

 

[Paul B]

I've never understood the use of Clorox bleach.. Kills life doesn't it?

Yes, kills and disintegrates. I said I use it to sterilize NSW not to keep the creatures or bacteria alive in it. I only use it if the water is full of paracites or red tide.

 

[Aquarist007]

Organic carbons in SW are a quite complex subject. I'm not sure anyone knows what all they are and all the various pathways they go through for production and subsequent fates...lots of ongoing research on those subjects.

As for our aquariums, IMO there is both good and bad. Some is useful food, some is problematic. As to which is which, I think the best we can do is work on general removal and add the things we know work.



That's the idea. It's for sterilizing the collected NSW before use in your tank

Honestly from someone who would love to get some nsw... That is a real waste. :eek1:

 

[Paul B]

Hi Paul! A self sustaining tank is my ultimate goal! Do run skimmerless aswell?

No, I have a large DIY skimmer. but skimming is natural, it is just bubbles, like on beer. :celeb3:

If you go to the sea and it is slightly polluted you will see foam on shore where the waves crash. The longer that foam lasts, the dirtier the water is.
This stuff off the Atlantic coast is rarely polluted. I just walk in with a bucket and usually don't have to do anything to it except swim in it a little before I throw it in my tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's the idea. It's for sterilizing the collected NSW before use in your tank

If and when you use NSW, do you want it sterilized?

FWIW, I did about a 10-15% change with raw NSW a couple of days ago. I have a bit of white haze in the water today.

Presumably it is a bacterial bloom, but I'm not sure if it is from bacteria in the NSW eating the vinegar I regularly dose, existing or new bacteria eating organics that came in with the NSW, or something else entirely. Maybe even a spawning event, although I saw no such thing happening.

It doesn't concern me, however.

 

[Paul B]

If and when you use NSW, do you want it sterilized?

It depends where and when I collect it. Sometimes it has red tide in it.
Yes, I know, why would I collect water with red tide in it?
Because I can.

 

[Imperator_]

It depends where and when I collect it. Sometimes it has red tide in it.
Yes, I know, why would I collect water with red tide in it?
Because I can.

I would love to be able to use NSW for water changes, but I don't live near the ocean at all. What would be even better would be to live near a reef... I would collect little frags everyday! :lol2:

 

[tmz]

Initially, after a brief search, I read your post and a talk by Albert Thiel. It seemed that skimming and GAC would equally deal with the suspended portion in the water column. The hypothesis being that it was undesirable.

Then I read in Reef Aquarium V 3, pg 182 under "Marine algae and trace element availability":

"One of the benefits of growing algae in an aquarium is that the algae release dissolved organic compounds that act as chealotors, binding to elements and compounds in the water. They even release exudate that include polysaccharides, complex organic nitrogenous matter, viatamines and phenolic compounds. Some of the dissolved organic matter contributes to the water staining in near shore habitats and in recirculating aquariums. In the natural enviroment, some of the exudates aggregate to form large organic particles in the water column, part of the material known as marine snow".

This does not sound like a bad thing to me. As I learn more, I realize the complexity of these differrent nutrient pathways.
Patrick

Some of what algae produces may be useful. The Red Sea study I noted earalier suggest much of it is refractory. Some of it is alleleopathic. Soem of it discolors teh water.
Excess TOC is believed to be harmful to corals per several studies ,perhpas in terms of imbalances with holibont bacteria ; just too much glucose somewhere in the degradation process or allelopathy .
As Randy, noted TOC as noted in your post per the Penn state study doesn't really tell you much at all about what is being measured and whether it is beneficial, benign or harmful. The conclusions and extrapolations suggesting what skimmers take out is some sort of proportionate mix of organics in tune with those in the aqaurium require some few unexplained leaps without a pasible reason to take them.
Th bottom line for me is algae adds organic C in the from of a varietty of compounds/ excess TOC is likely harmful overall. Skimming and GAC remove a variety of organics.

 

[Subsea]

"Organic carbons in SW are a quite complex subject. I'm not sure anyone knows what all they are and all the various pathways they go through for production and subsequent fates...lots of ongoing research on those subjects."

"As for our aquariums, IMO there is both good and bad. Some is useful food, some is problematic. As to which is which, I think the best we can do is work on general removal and add the things we know work."

I am 100% in agreement with Bills statement. Let us break down what mechanisms constitute "general removal":
Patrick

"Our earlier research on the topic of carbon nutrient levels in marine aquaria (Feldman, 2008; Feldman, 2009; Feldman, 2010) has provided experimental documentation for four conclusions that impact on TOC management in our reef tanks:"

"Reef aquaria utilizing active filtration (GAC, skimming) maintain equilibrium TOC levels within the range found on healthy tropical reefs.
Protein skimming (i.e., bubbles) is not very effective at removing TOC from aquarium water, depleting typical reef tank water of only ~ 20 - 35% of the post-feeding TOC present.
GAC filtration is quite effective at stripping reef tank water of its TOC load, removing 60 - 85% of the TOC present.
And, quite intriguingly, the natural biological filtration, which starts with bacteria and other microbes, is remarkable in its capacity to remediate reef tank water of TOC, easily removing 50% or more of the post-feeding TOC increase in tank water.
Conclusions (2) and (3) describe the consequences of mechanical filtration on TOC levels, but the 4th conclusion emphasizes the importance of the "hidden" part of the remediation equation, bacterial predation, for gaining an understanding of the dynamics of carbon commerce in our aquaria. In fact, this observation, coupled with the advent of Carbon Dosing strategies for nutrient export, led to a new series of questions regarding the perhaps pivotal role of bacteria, or at least skimmable water column bacteria, in successful reef aquarium husbandry."

Skimmers remove 25%, GAC removes 75% and the hidden part of the equation "biological filtration" removes 50%.
I do not see the compulsion to embrace skimmers, but that is just me.
Patrick

 

[Paul B]

I would love to be able to use NSW for water changes, but I don't live near the ocean at all. What would be even better would be to live near a reef... I would collect little frags everyday!

I don't live near Christie Brinkley either, but sometimes we just have to make sacrifices.

 

[Aquarist007]

"Organic carbons in SW are a quite complex subject. I'm not sure anyone knows what all they are and all the various pathways they go through for production and subsequent fates...lots of ongoing research on those subjects."

"As for our aquariums, IMO there is both good and bad. Some is useful food, some is problematic. As to which is which, I think the best we can do is work on general removal and add the things we know work."

I am 100% in agreement with Bills statement. Let us break down what mechanisms constitute "general removal":
Patrick

"Our earlier research on the topic of carbon nutrient levels in marine aquaria (Feldman, 2008; Feldman, 2009; Feldman, 2010) has provided experimental documentation for four conclusions that impact on TOC management in our reef tanks:"

"Reef aquaria utilizing active filtration (GAC, skimming) maintain equilibrium TOC levels within the range found on healthy tropical reefs.
Protein skimming (i.e., bubbles) is not very effective at removing TOC from aquarium water, depleting typical reef tank water of only ~ 20 - 35% of the post-feeding TOC present.
GAC filtration is quite effective at stripping reef tank water of its TOC load, removing 60 - 85% of the TOC present.
And, quite intriguingly, the natural biological filtration, which starts with bacteria and other microbes, is remarkable in its capacity to remediate reef tank water of TOC, easily removing 50% or more of the post-feeding TOC increase in tank water.
Conclusions (2) and (3) describe the consequences of mechanical filtration on TOC levels, but the 4th conclusion emphasizes the importance of the "hidden" part of the remediation equation, bacterial predation, for gaining an understanding of the dynamics of carbon commerce in our aquaria. In fact, this observation, coupled with the advent of Carbon Dosing strategies for nutrient export, led to a new series of questions regarding the perhaps pivotal role of bacteria, or at least skimmable water column bacteria, in successful reef aquarium husbandry."

Skimmers remove 25%, GAC removes 75% and the hidden part of the equation "biological filtration" removes 50%.
I do not see the compulsion to embrace skimmers, but that is just me.
Patrick

Tks Patrick I don't know if this has already been posted or I read it in one of the suggested articles
The passage does say that both gac and skimming reduce TOC to reef levels.
Isn't this what we want? To me it covers all the bases until someone can actually come up with a list of what organics skimming takes out as compared to what organics gac takes out. Paul's tank might make 50 yrs before that happens

 

[tmz]

"Reef aquaria utilizing active filtration (GAC, skimming) maintain equilibrium TOC levels within the range found on healthy tropical reefs

That is an overstatement IMO ;an expectation that ignores the complexities of organics and their variable effects as well as a myriad of external variables in each tank and those associated with variable skimmer and GAC applications in each different aquarium.FWIW, I use both GAC and skimming on the main system. I run some tanks without skimmers for certain corals with high heterotrophic needs : xenia, anthellia capnella and bublle tip anemones seem to do better in unskimmed water ; many others do better in the skimmed system.I can't ignore the aeration from a skimmer . It also exports bacteria and organics contiuously where GAC will trap some but won't export them until you remove it and add new media..

 

[Subsea]

Tks Patrick I don't know if this has already been posted or I read it in one of the suggested articles
The passage does say that both gac and skimming reduce TOC to reef levels.
Isn't this what we want? To me it covers all the bases until someone can actually come up with a list of what organics skimming takes out as compared to what organics gac takes out. Paul's tank might make 50 yrs before that happens

The devil is in the details. There are some details that list each separately. They are in the studies. If the conclusion statement had grouped GAC and the "hidden component" of biological filtration then it would have said that
"GAC and biological filtration reduce TOC to reef levels".
To each his on.
Patrick

PS: Without a doubt, a skimmer has less to go wrong with it. Skimmate just doesn't appeal to me as much as the biological filter.

PSS: For the common goal of peace, I have unsubscribed from this thread. Until different information is presented, I see little change in anyone's position.