Skimmerless: who's doing it? pros and cons

[tmz]

Patrick, is this the one
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/the-reef-aquarium-volume-three/9781883693145-item.html

That's the one. I have it and vols 1 and 2. I would note it was printed in 2005, almost 10years agon so the calims in the write up you posted about the newest ideas is out of date. It's an excellent resouce with much good information. I've read all of them and go back to them for reference frequently Like anything else though a reader should read it critically.

 

[Aquarist007]

Here is a link to some other skimmers tanks
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23029936&postcount=13

 

[billsreef]

If and when you use NSW, do you want it sterilized?

Depends on source, and what your use is. For my own tanks, I don't normally sterilize when collecting from known sources. Though for culturing algae I sterilize NSW from any source, direct from the ocean or well. For larval fish work, filtered small enough to at least remove crab zoae that would be predatory. Same routine in the lab facilities I've run over the years.

FWIW, I did about a 10-15% change with raw NSW a couple of days ago. I have a bit of white haze in the water today.

Presumably it is a bacterial bloom, but I'm not sure if it is from bacteria in the NSW eating the vinegar I regularly dose, existing or new bacteria eating organics that came in with the NSW, or something else entirely. Maybe even a spawning event, although I saw no such thing happening.

It doesn't concern me, however.

Never experienced that after a NSW change. Your presumption does seem reasonable.

It depends where and when I collect it. Sometimes it has red tide in it.
Yes, I know, why would I collect water with red tide in it?
Because I can.

I want to point that there a numerous different phytoplanktons that cause red tides, not all cause harmful algae blooms (HAB's), and of the ones that do cause HAB's, not all cause their problems in the same manner. In the NY area, where Paul collects his NSW, there is a harmful red algae that has been problematic for the past several years, however, it's effects appear to be as a mechanical irritant. One can simply filter the water to remove the algae, and the water is perfectly fine without any further treatment. On the flip side, the red tide that occurs in FL waters creates a toxin that might not be adequately destroyed by bleach...not to mention the toxin has human health impacts that would prevent one from being near enough a bloom to be handling the water to treat it. So I'd avoid playing with Red Tide water unless you know which kind you are dealing with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Bill.

Never experienced that after a NSW change. Your presumption does seem reasonable.

Whatever it was that caused the cloudiness, it disappeared within a few more hours.

 

[Timfish]

a Green Slimmer ( SPS), two frags grew from thumb nail size to larger than basketball size in 30 months. I believe that diversity in bacteria populations was responsible for the accelerated growth rates in a captive reef tank.


Green Slimers ( acropora youngei) are very fast growers and very hardy as acropora go.. I would not consider that to be accelerated growth for that coral based on my experience The one in the background top right is growing out of the water after about a year of growth from a 3inch frag:

Nice tank!

Here's a video of the entire tank with the Green Slimmers over a 4 1/2 year time span. Most of the corals were added months 4 - 8 and included A. millipora, A. tortusa, A. valida, Birdsnest was a weed, generic red and purple lip plating monti's. Curiously, two that did not do well for me in this system were Orange Montipora digitata and a green Pocillopora damicornis.

http://youtu.be/UjMFWHC4uBM

So in your experience what species have not done well when you tried them without a skimmer?

 

[ClearwaterUK]

I have been running skimmer less for 5 years

Display 54' x 24" x 30" Deep
Sump 44" x 19" x 20" Deep

Nutrient export is Cheato lit 24/7 with 125 watt CFL Horticultural 6500K lamp
The display has a 4" DSB and the sump has 50 Lbs of MM, no MM has been exchanged only 10 Lbs added on the top after 2 years

Ca Koralia 1501 reactor with coral 3mm sand for Elements (1501 is the 240 volt 50 Htz version)

I have gone as long as 10 months without water changes, though Ph tends to take a beating over time doing this, occasional Carbonate of soda dosing is required if Ph drops to low

Ph has been as low as 7.7, though I tend to buffer to Ph 8 6 grams ( 0.21 Ounces) lifts Ph 0.1 which I do via the RO ATU so its very slow climbing back up

I run GFO as and when required, i.e. once the glass need cleaning more frequently the Po4 will has risen past 0.03 its not required all the time and is often because I neglected to crop the Sump Algae

Nitrates always are undetectable on Salifert low range





In conclusion, you can run perfectly well with out skimmer, I feed 4 to 6 cubes of frozen food each day plus Nori for the tangs, the fish certainly are not starving

corals get some AA feed or Coral Vitaliser though rather add hock rather than a set dose, judged by eye

 

[Aquarist007]

Beautiful tank Tks for posting

 

[Imperator_]

I have been running skimmer less for 5 years

Display 54' x 24" x 30" Deep
Sump 44" x 19" x 20" Deep

Nutrient export is Cheato lit 24/7 with 125 watt CFL Horticultural 6500K lamp
The display has a 4" DSB and the sump has 50 Lbs of MM, no MM has been exchanged only 10 Lbs added on the top after 2 years

Ca Koralia 1501 reactor with coral 3mm sand for Elements (1501 is the 240 volt 50 Htz version)

I have gone as long as 10 months without water changes, though Ph tends to take a beating over time doing this, occasional Carbonate of soda dosing is required if Ph drops to low

Ph has been as low as 7.7, though I tend to buffer to Ph 8 6 grams ( 0.21 Ounces) lifts Ph 0.1 which I do via the RO ATU so its very slow climbing back up

I run GFO as and when required, i.e. once the glass need cleaning more frequently the Po4 will has risen past 0.03 its not required all the time and is often because I neglected to crop the Sump Algae

Nitrates always are undetectable on Salifert low range





In conclusion, you can run perfectly well with out skimmer, I feed 4 to 6 cubes of frozen food each day plus Nori for the tangs, the fish certainly are not starving

corals get some AA feed or Coral Vitaliser though rather add hock rather than a set dose, judged by eye

Wow! Nice tank! Do you use GAC? Do you carbon dose? And what kind lights are you running?

 

[acorral]

How many of those skimmerless reefs started as skimmerless or just after some time turned off the skimmer?

On my 400g I converted to skimmerless and everything is fine... But I started another 50g skimmerless from day 1 and after 6 months is still generating diatoms like crazy

 

[acorral]

How many of those skimmerless reefs started as skimmerless or just after some time turned off the skimmer?

On my 400g I converted to skimmerless and everything is fine... But I started another 50g skimmerless from day 1 and after 6 months is still generating diatoms like crazy

 

[ClearwaterUK]

Wow! Nice tank! Do you use GAC? Do you carbon dose? And what kind lights are you running?

Lights are Arcadia OT2 LED

30 3 watt 450 nm 30 3 watt 6500 K

6 T5 Tubes 80 watts


I dose Iodine

and use Activated carbon passively once a month

a Po4 absorber is also used if required probably 3 or 4 times a year

 

[Aquarist007]

Lights are Arcadia OT2 LED

30 3 watt 450 nm 30 3 watt 6500 K

6 T5 Tubes 80 watts


I dose Iodine

and use Activated carbon passively once a month

a Po4 absorber is also used if required probably 3 or 4 times a year

I'm finding that more and more reefers are utilizing t5s along with LEDs . I
Believe it is to ad uv's that leds don't provide

 

[ClearwaterUK]

I'm finding that more and more reefers are utilizing t5s along with LEDs . I
Believe it is to ad uv's that leds don't provide

That was the reason to go with a Hybrid unit 5 years ago

however LEDs have moved on you can get 390 /400/ 410 /420 nm Emitters now
which in T5 term we would call Actinic and 20K Tube

My next lighting will be full LED, as full spectrum is available

 

[ktownhero]

Established is not about time, it is about self reliance. IMO a mature or established tank is one where very little testing is required as the owner knows the parameters and he knows they will not change by adding or eliminating a creature. It is a tank where corals grow randomly on their own where polyps sprout up with no help from us. Where under every stone is noticeable life, just like in the sea. Where fish almost never die unless it is from old age, (which is well over 10 years for almost all fish) where all paired fish are spawning (fish that will spawn in a tank, no whale sharks or manta rays)
Tiny tube worms cover many dark areas and you can see amphipods scurrying about if you look at the tank at night with a flashlight.
No tweeking is necessary, water changes will not noticeably alter the health of anything. Hair algae and cyano grow very little and do not overtake anything.
The power can go out for a few days and no deaths or crashes will occur.
To have a tank like this does not happen overnight and may take ten or 15 years. That is my idea of an established tank, not 6 weeks because your $5.00 test kit reads zero ammonia.

I'm not disagreeing with you but I'd like to point out that you start this post by saying it is not about time and end it saying that it is.

Sounds like what you are describing is very much about time investment in allowing a tank to mature or become established. And I think it points something very important out in this hobby: people don't often keep tanks around long enough to even come close to knowing what it is like to have a fully established tank.

I disagree that it takes 10-15 years though. I had a 20L nano that met your description in less than 2 years and went on to enjoy a 10 year run until the clownfish in it died of old age.

 

[Paul B]

It is not about time per say, but it takes an unknown amount of time to have an established tank unless you grab everything out of the sea and put it in your tank at once. My 10-15 years is a broad time frame but it is IMO the time frame necessary to have a fully established tank. You can call a two year old tank established if you like and many people will agree with you. A two year old tank is not even the life span of a hermit crab so you won't know if your animals are living their full lifespan which for most creatures we keep is 10 or 15 years. Just my opinion of course. :beer:

 

[ktownhero]

It is not about time per say, but it takes an unknown amount of time to have an established tank unless you grab everything out of the sea and put it in your tank at once. My 10-15 years is a broad time frame but it is IMO the time frame necessary to have a fully established tank. You can call a two year old tank established if you like and many people will agree with you. A two year old tank is not even the life span of a hermit crab so you won't know if your animals are living their full lifespan which for most creatures we keep is 10 or 15 years. Just my opinion of course. :beer:

Well, like I said, the tank I was describing housed a clownfish for 10 years.

 

[codyreed29]

I have had my 10 gallon going for about 3 months skimmer less. I have a mangrove Calera cheat and a hob filter it was good but now has started to grow hair algae and am going to put a skimmer on the new tank. I have 3 fish and feed my fish and corals alot. I have 20 lbs live rock packed bare bottom tank with weekly 1 gallon water changes I think the nutrients have built up and I have increased feeding.

If I used my water changes to 20 percent weekly I could get away with out a skimmer and no algea.