Skimmerless

[mattsilvester]

Hi All,

I've been pretty quiet on this forum, and in the hobby in general, for the last 10yrs. I still run a small tank but it's nothing special. I feel I am a bit out of touch.

10-15 years ago "miracle mud" and macro algae was a hot topic. Not being sold on the mud, I just went with algae in the sump and ditched the skimmer, and enjoyed good results.

What is the latest thinking on skimmerless tanks?

I used to know the rule of thumb for the size of an algae bed needed to support a display, but don't remember.

If there are any good threads or other resources, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[reefgeezer]

Skimmerless or not is still a matter of opinion. My $.02 is to start with a skimmer then slow it down or remove it when the tank matures and the organisms in the tank can handle the organic load.

 

[hkgar]

People do go skimmerless but I always wonder how they get the dissolved organics out of the tank?

 

[ThRoewer]

People do go skimmerless but I always wonder how they get the dissolved organics out of the tank?

+1

If I look at the goop my skimmers remove from the tanks I can't imagine going without a skimmer long term on a reef tank.

 

[reefgeezer]

While I haven't had it happen, some tanks use DOC to the point where a skimmer is unnecessary, or even limiting. Mature tanks that have developed a lot of organisms like sponges, tube worms, and Sea Squirts in the darker regions of the reef, tanks heavily populated with soft corals, and even some mature SPS tanks where populations are heavy and and a lot of growth is occurring need a lot of DOC input.

An algae based system may be advantageous in these systems if N&P needs to be controlled without limiting DOC. Many times though, these types of systems manage N&P without much help.

That all goes out the window though for new systems. IMO, elevated DOC's cause just as many problems as N & P for systems that don't have the capability to use them. Personally, I think a skimmer is the best answer. It is effective, works immediately, and it can be adjusted to maintain changing DOC level needs as the tank matures.

 

[eschaton]

When it comes down to it, skimmate is a mixture of broken down food particles and waste (plus some bacteria and living phytoplankton that get sucked up). But really it's complex organic molecules which can be used as food for something in your tank. So long as it's not being used as food for nuisance algae - instead feeding filter-feeders like sponges, tunicates, clams, and even some corals, or chaeto and pods in your fuge - it's not a big deal.

I have to say that I've always suspected we've gotten the low level of nutrients in reef water in the wild backwards. Yes, reefs generally have crystal clear, low-nutrient water, but much of this is because there are just so many filter-feeders packed into a small area that the water passing through is just naturally "polished"

In addition, while pumps are also guilty of this, skimmers pretty quickly pulp and sequester any delicate plankton floating around your tank. It is believed by some that skimmers and pumps are a large part of the reason why it is so difficult for organisms with a planktonic larval stage to survive to metamorphosis within a tank.

 

[hkgar]

Would filter socks be a substitute for a skimmer?

 

[alton]

Would filter socks be a substitute for a skimmer?

No.
When I had Xenia and many other softies in a tank I couldn't run my skimmer because the Xenia would not pulse. For LPS and SPS tanks use a skimmer unless you have a very light load or one giant macro algae farm. Picture of tank not using a skimmer

 

[RioReefr]

I just posted a thread about how my protein skimmer had died. For me, it has dramatically affected my reef tank and I am struggling to control algae now. The tank is 2 years old and I would have called it "established".

I literally cannot wait to get my new protein skimmer.

As for your question, you can do searches on the "Triton method" -- it basically requires a large fuge full of chaeto, pods, a good grow light, and super porous biomedia (ie marinepure).

Personally, I think it is simpler/cheaper just to install a good protein skimmer PLUS a skimmer also oxygenates the water.

 

[five.five-six]

I just posted a thread about how my protein skimmer had died. For me, it has dramatically affected my reef tank and I am struggling to control algae now. The tank is 2 years old and I would have called it "established".

Established is one thing but mature is something else. In a mature tank, the mass of living corals is enough to consume the nutrients that a skimmer would export. Lots of mature tanks will run skimmers just for gas exchange but set teh skim-mate to very dry to leave more food for the coral in the water.

 

[eschaton]

I mean, in general it's the case that nuisance algae reproduce much, much faster than more desirable tank flora and fauna, like coraline and sessile inverts. This is the whole reason why there's typically a succession of algae outbreaks as a tank cycles. Thus you'd expect big issues - initially - once a skimmer breaks.

On the other hand, if you never run a skimmer - and are careful to slowly stock your tank over time, the tank biota should be able to process all the organics. Or you could wean down your skimmer use slowly over time.

I don't think there is any question with modern equipment though that it's cheaper to set up and operate a chaeto-stocked fuge than a professional-quality skimmer. And you have the added benefits of PH stabilization at night (if operated on a reverse cycle) plus a nice little pod reactor as a tank food source.

A lot of it just comes down to what kinda tank you like though. Some people are so worried about coral pests they prefer to use dry rock and just introduce bacteria and coraline - basically just looking at the tank as there for coral and fish growth/display. Others like to set up their tanks to be as close to wild reef ecosystems as is technologically feasible.

 

[mattsilvester]

Thanks for all the great replies.

It’s been a while, and I am between tanks right now. I am planning to restart my old Red Sea Max C130. I have removed the canopy and will also remove the skimmer. That lets a chamber the length of the tank, and about 5” wide at the back of the tank. I am thinking to put cheato in this chamber. The cheato will float to the surface. So I am think how will I light it? There will be a pendant type LED lighting system on the display tank, so that will provide lighting during the day time. Do I absolutely need to have 24hr or reverse lighting? I could put some small underwater LED strip light in the chamber that would come on at night. Would that be necessary?

I will probably run the Red Sea skimmer just for cycling, then add the cheato and begin stocking with corals only, very slowly.

Thanks in advance and thanks again for all your great replies.

Matt

 

[JohnL]

I will probably run the Red Sea skimmer just for cycling, then add the cheato and begin stocking with corals only, very slowly.

Thanks in advance and thanks again for all your great replies.

Matt

Good luck Matt. Keep us posted. - John

 

[reefing102]

I don’t believe you have to run the Cheato on reverse, although I do. Is the back of it solid black plastic or clear plastic with a black film? I know some tanks are clear with a black film and people will sand the back side and put a light on the back side. I don’t know if that works for Red Sea tanks or not

 

[Timfish]

The cryptic sponges in your system will process the labile DOC excreted by corals and algae1000X faster than the bacterioplankton removed by skimmers. Cryptic sponges also process the hydrophilic stuff skimmers don't address. Additionally, it doesn't matter where you look, sustanable farming or our owm physical and mental health, healthy microbiomes are essential. Feldman, et al, showed skimmers radically alter the microbiomes in reef aquariums so I don't see how skimmers can help keep most corals and reef aquariums for their normal life expectancies.

Here's some of my skimmerless ssytems:

https://youtu.be/4t8IjelZwUk

https://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg

https://youtu.be/dh_nLhj1QXc

https://youtu.be/aCRYfIZs8N8


Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka carbon dosing) is a very complex subject in reef systems. Here's more inmformation if you're interested:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R2BMEfQGjU

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7hsp0dENEA

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont
https://youtu.be/DWItFGRQJL4

BActeria and Sponges
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLDclO7UcM

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)
https://youtu.be/dGIPveFJ_0Q

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching
https://youtu.be/oadKezUYkJE

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"
https://youtu.be/ZRIKW-9d2xI

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2006.00937.x

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).
https://peerj.com/articles/108/?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_campaign=PeerJ_TrendMD_0&utm_medium=TrendMD

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2006/314/m314p119.pdf

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0027973

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae
https://peerj.com/articles/106/

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3719127/

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs
https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201661

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23303369

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.13695

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166445X19307192

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton
https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej2017142

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22944243

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27795310

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22957055

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23028648

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven
https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201642

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7096749/figure/fig3/

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes
https://msystems.asm.org/content/msys/3/2/e00162-17.full.pdf


Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12758

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
https://search.proquest.com/openvie...9d1e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28828261

 

[Anemone]

The cryptic sponges in your system will process the labile DOC excreted by corals and algae1000X faster than the bacterioplankton removed by skimmers. Cryptic sponges also process the hydrophilic stuff skimmers don't address.

Bob Fenner, is that you? ?


Sorry, I just remember Bob advocating for his cryptic sponge sump many, many years ago.

Kevin

 

[Timfish]

Bob Fenner, is that you? ?


Sorry, I just remember Bob advocating for his cryptic sponge sump many, many years ago.

Kevin

Yeah, his pragamatic approach in his books and articles was very helpful when I started back in the day.
Steve Tyree also was a huge fan (I think his E-books are still available). If you haven't read de Goeij's and research it's pretty fascinating, not only confirms Fenner and Tyree but also shows how critical sponges are and the potential problems since they process DOC from algae differently than from corals and can create a feedback loop favoring corals over algae.

 

[Anemone]

Yeah, his pragamatic approach in his books and articles was very helpful when I started back in the day.
Steve Tyree also was a huge fan (I think his E-books are still available). If you haven't read de Goeij's and research it's pretty fascinating, not only confirms Fenner and Tyree but also shows how critical sponges are and the potential problems since they process DOC from algae differently than from corals and can create a feedback loop favoring corals over algae.

Yeah, I think Tyree once recommended blending a bunch of sponge pieces and adding to his sump! ?

Kevin

 

[Timfish]

Just a short video update of my skimmerless system started in 1997, Green Brittle Star has been in this system since winter '97. Purple Tang. purchased mid '90s ('95?), rehomed fall 2015. Yellow Tang, purchased 2002, rehomed fall 2015. Blonde Naso and standard Naso purchased 2013, rehomed 2016.

 

[S|\/|S]

I have one but don't run it all the time. It does pull goop out but I wonder if this is good for the corals. Levels are ok